Revised Dodge Chances

[Lunatic]

Hello! You might have remembered my last thread talking about dodges. As I've played and played I've gained a better understanding over the mechanic and why it is, in my eyes, a "necessary evil." However! I believe that dodges in general could still use a revision, though not as drastic as I stated before. I have two different ideas for how dodges could be revised, without the complete removal of a chance to hit through dodges.

The current dodge functions in that every projectile has a 10% chance to hit someone while they're rolling or diving. There are three guns that are an exception to this rule: The Flare Gun, the Grenade Launcher, and the Bazooka. Some weapons benefit from this 10% chance more than others - mostly the automatics, as they have more chances to hit through a dodge than slower weapons, like the Magnum or sniper.

That's why, when you get shot through your dodge by a magnum and die from a relatively healthy standpoint, it's a little frustrating. "But I dodged that!" Well, yes and no. You didn't get lucky, is what truly happened. This is hardly fun (at least for the dodger), which is what spurred on this revised post. That all said, here's my first idea to change the dodge mechanic:

-Automatics should be untouched. The 10% chance to hit through dodges are fine.
-Shotguns should have a 20% chance to hit through a dodge (for each pellet, not the entire blast). They fire a spread of pellets and, if anything, would be more likely to hit someone while they're weaving around.
-Semi-automatic weapons, or slow-firing weapons, should have 0% crit chance. In other words, these weapons in particular should not be able to hit through a dodge: Pistol/silenced pistol, Carbine, Magnum, Revolver, or Sniper Rifle.

Weapons that aren't fully automatic would have a harder time meeting their mark without proper patience and marksmanship while the automatics would be true spray-and-pray weapons. If this change is too drastic for the pistols/carbine, I could see them still have a low chance to hit through dodges (5%, if not 10%).

So that was one idea. This is a second, totally different idea. Because Klipeh thought I was proposing both at the same time lmao.

As for my second idea for dodge revision, I thought "Well why not just make dodges have a 100% chance to dodge the first bullet or two when dodging?" This would greatly fix the problem with snipers and magnums nuking someone despite skillful dodges, and urge players to avoid automatic fire in case they don't luck out well. In fact, you could even give players a higher chance to get hit the more bullets they dodge in one roll/dive, increasing the chance to hit them mid-dodge by, say, 5% each bullet.

All in all, I don't appreciate the way these heavy hits can knock someone out of the round when they dodged accordingly, but I still don't want that random chance to hit mid-dodge taken out of the game. I think these ideas can maintain that idea while putting dodges in a place where they're less risky to use against the power rifles.

[Del Poncho]

I always saw the chance to be hit by a heavy-damage weapon something that you have to put in the equation. A roll/dive should not be the first response to these weapons.
Actual dodging,jumping,or unusual paths are the best way to dodge weapons with a low rate of fire. I tend to use rolls and dives as a last resort.

[Lunatic]

I think you'd act differently with dodges if they did their job more reliably against those which it mattered most - the life-or-death heavy hits. As a dodge, having a chance to just fail on you despite properly dodging a hit is a slap in the face to those who dodged when they needed to. It's understandable for automatics and shotguns but not the magnum or revolver.

[Del Poncho]

Well,it's obvious that I'd act differently with a change like this. But the point is,I don't think I'd like this change.
Having to actually put commitment in a dodge is fun,and raises the skill cap a little.

As it is right now,you got two options:
-Try to dodge "manually" by moving around and jumping in unpredictable paths ----------> Focus on your skills (and a bit of luck,of course)
-Dodge with a dive or a roll ----------> Focus on your luck

It's up to the player to choose.

[Lunatic]

Except a player with a gun can use equal skill and bait out jumps/dodges. This ups the skill cap more than random chance by making each shot more important for these powerful weapons instead of hoping you'll just knock 'em dead through their roll. If anything, jumping makes you free food (as long as you aren't holding a melee weapon or you're bad at deflecting) since you can't really avoid a shot if they're expecting the jump. Add slomo too and you're pretty much fucked. A magnum should require more patience and precision to hit, killing someone through a dodge is dumb luck - and while that's what SFD is about, it feels very unfun for both the shooter and the dead.

[Del Poncho]

Meh,don't know about you,but I never waste ammo (and time,since both the sniper rifle and the magnum have a lot of time between shots) trying to shoot someone during a roll.
I mean,yeah,it can happen,a guy is charging me,and he does a roll a few meters from me,and at that point I have to decide wether to shoot him or not(if I shoot,the possibilities are 2: I hit him,or I miss him,leaving me defenseless). Otherwise,I never shoot someone dodging from afar.
So yeah,seeing the low ammo capability and the low rate of fire,shooting someone while he's rolling is just a bad choice,unless you have literally no other chances.

[Lunatic]

But that doesn't remove the fact that you can still be hit mid-roll by powerful weapons, which is the problem here. I don't think it's wise to hope for a lucky hit through a dodge but that doesn't change the fact that it can happen. That's the proposition for the first change - which, all in all, I'm more in favor of.

[Del Poncho]

If I knew I had 100% chances to dodge a weapon,I wouldnt even bother trying do dodge it in other ways or take cover.
I'd just charge the enemy and roll when he's about to shoot.
Yes,he can still wait for me to finish the roll but it's easy to avoid that too.

[Lunatic]

You can't survive with just rolls alone though, there's a lot of cooldown on rolling. You'll still need to deflect/jump/juke to avoid gunfire. This just makes rolling more reliable when it's needed most, it's not ever going to invalidate other forms of evasion.

[ill]

-Automatics should be untouched. The 10% chance to hit through dodges are fine.
-Shotguns should have a 20% chance to hit through a dodge (for each pellet, not the entire blast). They fire a spread of pellets and, if anything, would be more likely to hit someone while they're weaving around.
-Semi-automatic weapons, or slow-firing weapons, should have 0% critical chance. In other words, these weapons in particular should not be able to hit through a dodge: Pistol/silenced pistol, Carbine, Magnum, Revolver, or Sniper Rifle.

Well... um.. that idea seems... ok.. and the second one doesn't sound that bad either.
But in my unbiased experience of 2 years in SFD have led me to the conclusion that all in all, getting a critical hit while diving almost never happens. and when it does, it still happens rarely. "you will dodge nine out of ten bullets when diving or rolling" says the loading screen tips. That means there's a 10% chance of getting hit by one bullet. One out of ten bullets will hit you, that could be either a carbine, revolver, a sniper rifle, or a magnum.
the other automatic weapons are too weak to be taken in discussion. Giving my personal example, whenever i get hit by a bullet it either is an automatic or a weak damage weapon that doesn't critically hit me, so that resets the chance back to one out of ten. there are 9 more bullets to go past me until another one will hit me while diving and rolling. People complain about getting critically hit while diving/rolling. But that always varies depending on the weapon critical hit chance. Now let's just assume that all the critically hit chances of the automatic weapons are 10%. one out of ten bullets will crit you. That ONE out of ten bullets, to occur in the chance of critical damage, to match perfectly with the ONE out of ten bullets to CRIT you GOES AT 1% Chance! there's a 1% chance of getting Critically damaged while diving/rolling! 1%!!! and not to mention NOT all weapons have that 10% chance of critical damage! Even if the weapon has a higher chance of critical damage, it still will remain below 3% chance of getting critted while diving/rolling. And that's Automatic weapons.

But to speak about sniper rifle that has 6 total of bullets, 6 bullets out of NINE that you can avoid is more than a fair chance. One bullet out of ten will hit you. Let's say that was an automatic than someone else fired. Now you have 9 more bullets to avoid while diving. The sniper rifle has 6. You can be sure, absolutely sure that you can dodge that bullet. That in case only if that one bullet that hit you was earlier, and now you can only dodge 5 or 3 bullets. you will still only get hit ONCE by that sniper rifle, if you dodge properly. If you are diving off a cliff at THAT ONE TIME you will get hit, that small chance of getting hit, and you get hit by it, then that was just the wrong timing of that chance. You will fall on the ground from height and die. but that chance still remains somewhere around 5%. It is fair because it can happen to anyone.

If we talk about carbine which has 33% chance of Critical damage it's one every 3 shots on average. The devs say it is a bit more than random as well, but still has a slight random chance. Also A carbine has like 10 bullets per magazine. 20 bullets in total. not taking the carbine crit chance into account, there are only 2 bullets that will hit (while diving/rolling) out of that entire 20. "one out of ten bullets will hit you" remember? so that's 2 chances of the carbine to hit you while diving/rolling, and one of these chances can not even be a critical, given the slight random chance of critical damage, and that chance to occur when a gun has 20 bullets, it is still very low.

Magnum has 12. Because one out of ten will hit you, there will be only one occasion when magnum will critically hit you. because magnum almost always critically hits, well, i think magnum has the highest chance to critically hit you while diving/rolling. 5% - 10% chance. maybe the highest out of all the weapons, because it has more ammo than a sniper rifle.

If my research is correct, maybe i am wrong, because i'm not a computer, and i approximated some of the values, but i think these are the values:
Chances of getting Critically HIT while DIVING/ROLLING:

Automatic weapons - 1% ( and sometimes even lower like 0.5% )
Carbine - 2%
Magnum - 5% ( i think i may be wrong on this one )
Sniper Rifle - 1%

[Lunatic]

It's not even about critical hits. It's about strong weapons hitting you while you're dodging, a mechanic specifically made to prevent yourself from taking hits. It's like the equally unsatisfying dud - you do everything perfectly but you still lose because the dice roll against you. Great for casual games, awful for competitive games. There's no reason to argue against it though - SFD isn't going to be competitive. That's not SFD's vision.

As for your stats, every bullet that passes you is a separate dice roll. You could technically dodge all 100 M60 shots, it's possible. Very unlikely, you could also get shot all 100 times while dodging an M60. That's how the mechanic works. I'm quite alright with automatics being able to do this, but having these powerful weapons be able to nuke someone mid-dive, crit or no crit, really hurts the idea of dodging. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth that no matter how good I play or how good my reactions are, I can't even tell if I'm actually pressing dodge in time. Did I misinput, or did it just hit me anyways?

Crits are really irrelevant, but even if they were your stats are so far wrong I don't really want to fix them.

[Brine]

i think 0% chance in slow weapons is a bit too much. i think 5% is ok

Added in 2 minutes 12 seconds:
sorry i didnt see you said that about pistols and carbines