Grab thread v2 - grabs are busted

[Lunatic]

After finally having some time to properly test grabs, we the people have found that you can (just barely) block an attack and grab the attacker. It's easier to land between hits 2 and 3 than 1 and 2, and it's much easier to land when they hold a melee weapon (instead of fists since they're faster). However, even if they mash attack as fast as possible, as long you block and instantly grab after blocking, you have enough time to grab the opponent between swings, which is essentially a double damage punish. Generally speaking, it's easier to do when closer to the opponent, and almost impossible against a chain at max range.

After playing with grabs for awhile, I still feel like my first thread summed them up pretty well in how they feel. You can find my first thread here. Not much has changed anywhere along this thread in terms of how I feel about grabs and their mechanics. To list the important ones, though: Grabs are too slow, deal too much damage, have too much cooldown, and don't have any endlag (which makes them harder to punish).

Now that we know that grabs can be used after blocking to do big damage (albeit the timing is tight), we have two options here. We can make grabs even slower, making it harder to land them in general and much harder to punish blocks; or we can make them initiate faster, deal less damage, and have some endlag if you miss so they're easier to punish. Hopefully you can guess which one I'm pushing. They'll still be able to land after blocking a hit, but depending on melee weapon, it might actually be weaker to use a power punch compared to a basic attack from a katana (implying the power punch deals 10 damage, as I'd recommend).

As a side note, the game is still in an "early access" state of sorts. Now is the best time to throw things at the wall and see what sticks, so that we the players can give feedback on how things feel and hopefully push the game to new heights not thought possible. Don't be afraid to make changes that might be seen as game-breaking, as the only unwanted game-changers are changes that move the game away from the direction you're taking, devs.

EDIT: To clarify, I do think it's a problem that we can land a grab after a block considering how much damage they do with the punch alone. If there were better methods of attacking to keep a grabber for getting us, this wouldn't be a problem, but if grabs are to be landed after blocking then they need to deal less damage - otherwise it's bonkers.

[Del Poncho]

What about a simple cooldown that doesnt let you start a grab after being punched? Just for the time needed to land another attack.
This is obviously just about the block+grab thing discussed in this topic.

[Lunatic]

That opens up a problem where hit block (aka ADADAD) has no viable counter again.

[Del Poncho]

That opens up a problem where hit block (aka ADADAD) has no viable counter again.

Makes sense.

What about another cooldown that prevents someone to get grabbed between attacks,but just by the person he had just hit?

We're goin' deeper.

[Lunatic]

I honestly think it's fine if grabs can land between attacks, provided you block the attack properly and grab afterwards. It's only a problem now because a grab is double damage + potential fall damage instead of just one hit. That's why I suggest faster + weaker grabs so they can more reliably do this but also not be super strong in terms of the hit.

[Gurt]

After some detailed testing it's just barely possible to grab someone between attack 2 and 3 IF they mash the attack as fast as possible. If they are slightly delayed it might be possible between attack 1 and 2 as well. There's a time window in which you can activate your next attack, if you wait long enough and your opponent block+grab fast enough this can happen. Our intention is that it should not be possible to grab someone attacking you after a block so we will simply add a very small cooldown to the grab after a successful block to prevent this from happening. As it is now it's a bug and not our intention how it should work.

[Lunatic]

Our intention is that it should not be possible to grab someone attacking you after a block so we will simply add a very small cooldown to the grab after a successful block to prevent this from happening. As it is now it's a bug and not our intention how it should work.

Then make sure it's not too long; if I block and read a block in response I need to grab. Not being able to land that is a big deal.

[Vitamin E]

Our intention is that it should not be possible to grab someone attacking you after a block

if I block and read a block in response I need to grab. Not being able to land that is a big deal.

We can make grabs even slower, making it harder to land them in general and much harder to punish blocks; or we can make them initiate faster, deal less damage, and have some endlag if you miss so they're easier to punish.

EDIT: To clarify, I do think it's a problem that we can land a grab after a block considering how much damage they do with the punch alone. If there were better methods of attacking to keep a grabber for getting us, this wouldn't be a problem, but if grabs are to be landed after blocking then they need to deal less damage - otherwise it's bonkers.

So once the cooldown is added the grabber won't be able to do the "busted" grabbing between hits. So it seems like Gurt went with slow and strong rather than fast and weak and I'd have to say I agree with him on this one. It's better so that people don't spam it. If the grab was fast the "end lag if you miss" wouldn't matter because the grab is quick, so people won't miss.

[Lunatic]

So once the cooldown is added the grabber won't be able to do the "busted" grabbing between hits. So it seems like Gurt went with slow and strong rather than fast and weak and I'd have to say I agree with him on this one. It's better so that people don't spam it. If the grab was fast the "end lag if you miss" wouldn't matter because the grab is quick, so people won't miss.

You don't want people to spam grabs but this change literally means spamming attack beats grabs 100% of the time. This is hilarious because it's not hard to time blocks to beat attack spam either. Why are we so afraid of grab spam when spam A beats spam B? That's the whole point of rock paper scissors. The situation is so dynamic, too, that if you just hold to walk away after getting punched, if the person tries to grab you can swap to throw mode and toss your weapon at them mid-charge or right as it ends (and if grabs had some ending "kneel" this would be even easier to land).

Melee used to be quick and weak in 1.2.1 and it was the most exciting, fun, and fast-paced version of SFD to date. Today's version already is slow and powerful, but grabs just make the issue more extreme. I'd rather see grabs go for the middle, such that they're only a little slower than attacks and deal a little more damage than fists so that melee weapons are stronger than power punches. This makes melee attacks deal more damage than a power punch and thus a more rewarding punish, as well as keeps grabs relevant such that they're not so slow they're easy to beat.

What's the big emphasis on spam from people, anyways? Spamming a move never has guaranteed victory unless it's literally counter-spam. Spamming is pretty obvious and if beating the move is as simple as hitting it with another move then I fail to see how you can't adapt and just do the move.

[mgtr14]

I just want to add, it's incredibly easily easy to dive, jump and kick without cooldown ( if possible ) and then just grab them. Sure they can get up for like half a second but that isn't enough to punch/kick or even roll away.

[Juan1111]

What if you could get out of a grab? Like kicking the dude on the face before he throws you or something. He grabs you, you kick, he staggers, you kneel, both get up and keep on fighting.
I think it would be a fair punishment for either the possible spam or the indesicivness of some players when a grab is succesful.

[Lunatic]

Spamming buttons after being grabbed will break you out MUCH faster than just waiting until the opponent does something.

[mariomario345]

How about adding DI from Smash Bros to grabs, so that you can influence the angle at which you will be sent by about 10 degrees or so for no instant kills near pits?

[Lunatic]

I think grabs need to be reworked instead. Reduce the knockback on throws + power punch, make the punch weaker, and make grabs faster (just barely slower than a punch rather than what we have now). Increase the cooldown after blocking an attack so we can't block then grab if that's what it takes. Grabs are in a really shitty place in terms of balance and need worked out. As they stand they're slow as shit and either reward instant death/high damage, or you miss and get fucked up by the enormous cooldown (which could also use lowering). Nerf the instadeath and make them faster so they can be worthwhile as opposed to this mess.

[Hjarpe]

I think grabs need to be reworked instead. Reduce the knockback on throws + power punch, make the punch weaker, and make grabs faster (just barely slower than a punch rather than what we have now). Increase the cooldown after blocking an attack so we can't block then grab if that's what it takes. Grabs are in a really shitty place in terms of balance and need worked out. As they stand they're slow as shit and either reward instant death/high damage, or you miss and get fucked up by the enormous cooldown (which could also use lowering). Nerf the instadeath and make them faster so they can be worthwhile as opposed to this mess.

"Balance" is very subjective I guess. Grabs were always supposed to be a high-risk, high-reward move. I like that they are very situational, i.e. rare but consequential when they happen. The grab is something you have to either time well, bait the enemy into, or just get lucky with. I think the grabs are in a good place and I've seen it being used in fun, organic ways. I'm not saying it couldn't possibly be improved, but I don't agree with your solution. If grabs were as fast and common as punches or blocks I feel they would have to be nerfed to the point of being dull. I'd rather have grabs be rare but have each one be an "oh crap" event.

[Lunatic]

"Balance" is very subjective I guess. Grabs were always supposed to be a high-risk, high-reward move. I like that they are very situational, i.e. rare but consequential when they happen. The grab is something you have to either time well, bait the enemy into, or just get lucky with. I think the grabs are in a good place and I've seen it being used in fun, organic ways. I'm not saying it couldn't possibly be improved, but I don't agree with your solution. If grabs were as fast and common as punches or blocks I feel they would have to be nerfed to the point of being dull. I'd rather have grabs be rare but have each one be an "oh crap" event.

High risk would be a move not being safe - like a jump attack, since there's ample time after the attack to "punish" the attacker. It is much, MUCH harder to punish a move on start considering how slow attacks are, which in turn means that the proper way to beat a grab is to spam attack and hope they don't weasel in between your punches (there's a small window (and you don't have to worry if you have a melee weapon)). Since grabs are slow to come out and have no drawbacks whatsoever for missing, they're much less risk as a result. It's also incredibly easy to combo into a grab (falling off a crate and attacking, landing hit 3 from melee against an object, just general knockdowns really) which makes grabs even less risk since you can pretty much just wait until you get your knockdown and land the grab. It's not like the victim can retaliate or escape in any way.

Easy combos and high reward make grabs a very powerful move that makes them more situational than practical. While they have high startup, this problem is easily avoided when utilizing the environment even a little. As a high reward move I'm not convinced it should have such low risk confirms. By making the move a little faster and a little less powerful, it can be more effective more often, be a less powerful combo tool, and be more easily interacted with by giving players more options to use and deal with this move. Let's not forget the original idea of the move was to counter blocking - I don't feel the move can even do that well, as I've initiated grabs as people initiate blocks, and they're able to hit me before I get to them. Do I have poor timing? It's possible, but that also means the window to land a grab on block prediction is way too tight to be a conventional block breaker.

I think grabs will always have that "oh crap" moment no matter how they're implemented. This is still Alpha, aka early access. Playtesting potential methods for the game's future is best done now, and you have a massive playerbase testing the game as-is. Release experimental updates with changes you want to see in action, and see how the players feel about it. It can always be reverted, and you might find something fun that wasn't available before.