Opinions on combos in melee?

[mgtr14]

Personally, I don't like combos in SFD at all. They turn an exchange into a two-step goodbye, which happened more often since grabs were added. I wonder why. I don't like how destructive and yet how easy they are.

Combos happen way too easily in this game, especially with low ceilings. As soon as you tackle someone below those spots, they're in for atleast 21 damage. This isn't really fun for most people. You're stunlocked throughout, and if they have somewhere to throw you down then you're dead, come back in ~1-3 minutes. I find it very odd to have minimal fighting in an action game, these combos abruptly end a fight. If you think that the fighting and fun comes from both players struggling to land the combo, you're wrong. Those fights don't last since someone IS going to get caught.

I've played against this alot, and it's really hard to counter. Either try throwing, tackling them at the same time, hitting them at the right time, doing it to them first, or not fighting in those places at all.

A dive is not so easy to dodge or counter. It's an instant stun that can't be blocked nor easily hit. I've done this so many times and it's so common that it isn't even funny or cool anymore. It's a boring combo that ends a fight prematurely. The maps are also full of those spots, a notorious example is the platform in Chemical Plant. We can't simply "avoid those spots" since they're everywhere on official maps, and in every elevator too.

I can think of 5 solutions - Don't use low ceilings in maps, revamp melee, change the dive, nerf/remove grab or don't use "death zones" in maps.

"Don't use low ceilings in maps/Don't use death zones", because then it won't be possible or as destructive. The problem with this is that elevators are included too, and this rule would limit mapmakers.

"Revamp melee", because I don't think combos fit in this system because of how easy and destructive they are. I don't have any ideas for how to do this though, and I think this is pretty unneccesary.

"Change the dive", since that's the most common and easy combo starter in the game. I don't have any particular ideas for this however, and I don't want to change the dive.

"Nerf/Remove grab", because that's what makes the combos powerful in the first place. I doubt the developers will do it anyways, and it's been... "integrated" into melee and people are "used" to it.

"Combo de-multiplier", to mitigate the overall damage from combos, this won't stop instakills however.

If you can think of anything else to consider, if you disagree, if you have any more possible solutions, feel free to reply.
(The reason I'm not against using objects for combos is that they're not static, and enemies can't tackle you there and combo thereafter as easily.)

[Vitamin E]

Just don’t play on official maps. Easy solution

I don’t understand why anyone would want a “combo de-multiplayer”, this game is meant to be fast and one wrong move or mistaken attack can cause you to lose your life. It’s not meant to be a slow and weak combat system.

Dive is not as strong as you make it sound. Just punch a diver in the face when you see it coming. It’s even easier to do with a long melee weapon.

There’s a reason health packs spawn in this game. If it was meant to be fully strategic like street fighter, then we wouldn’t have hp but this is an rng based game and you can still win even if you don’t use a “two step goodbye”

If you die, just kill your opponent next match. It’s not that hard to start to read other players and anticipate what they’ll do next so you can react in time and kill them before they kill you

[mgtr14]

Just don’t play on official maps. Easy solution

People can't always host themselves or have good options, the only server I can play on with good ping is on either Blurry's or Mulefires, and few EU servers that spring up randomly.

I don’t understand why anyone would want a “combo de-multiplayer”, this game is meant to be fast and one wrong move or mistaken attack can cause you to lose your life. It’s not meant to be a slow and weak combat system.

I didn't suggest a weak or slow combat system, I said that the combos I'm talking about are way too destructive. There is no real counter (Other than hitting precise and timed punches, but you may not even have enough time to do that) and they'll usually deal alot of damage or kill.
If you want to deal a little less than half of 100HP, throw a knife after grab punching someone. I'm not talking about simple combos that deal a little more than the usual, I'm talking about easily performed combos that could easily deal a ton of damage or outright kill you.

There’s a reason health packs spawn in this game. If it was meant to be fully strategic like street fighter, then we wouldn’t have hp but this is an rng based game and you can still win even if you don’t use a “two step goodbye”

I don't see how luck has much to do with this at all, of course you can win without using such melee combos, you can also win without moving at all sometimes. But using those combos definitely increase your chances. And out of all the things to be a constant in a game stuffed with luck, it's a game ending one.

Dive is not as strong as you make it sound. Just punch a diver in the face when you see it coming. It’s even easier to do with a long melee weapon.

You won't always have so much distance between someone and yourself, and people usually don't dive just like that. If you dive while you're right next to someone, there's nothing they can do. If they're just about to stand up, they can't do anything.

If you die, just kill your opponent next match. It’s not that hard to start to read other players and anticipate what they’ll do next so you can react in time and kill them before they kill you

The game rewards anticipation too little. Nothing can "out damage" these combos unless you do them yourself. You will almost never deal as much damage as they would've if you counter a combo setup.

[GreenyShark]

If you can't beat em, join em.
I think the best way to get rid of this problem it to learn the combos
and then use it against the "perpetrator".

[mgtr14]

If you can't beat em, join em.
I think the best way to get rid of this problem it to learn the combos
and then use it against the "perpetrator".

I have. Either they do it first or you do it first, It's not really fun. Both players just struggle for around 3-4 seconds and someone either leaves or gets caught. I think it's alot more fun when there isn't a combo that everyone tries to land, melee fights aren't as nuanced as they used to be IMO. Noone used to camp these low ceiling spots this as often as before.

[RickAvory]

I will never understand the hatred for combos and someone who is skillful melee. Learn how to defend their technique. It is definitely defendable.

[GreenyShark]

Learn how to defend their technique. It is definitely defendable.

I think it's better for you to provide the ways to defend their technique instead of just giving a blind adventure

[RickAvory]

Learn how to defend their technique. It is definitely defendable.

I think it's better for you to provide the ways to defend their technique instead of just giving a blind adventure

Alright if you are anyone else tells me a specific combo that you are distasteful of I will provide a way of defending.

[Gurt]

If someone is camping a low ceiling spot and you know it's a hard counter for you personally, find some other options. Grab a gun or throw something at him. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=245

[mgtr14]

I will never understand the hatred for combos and someone who is skillful melee. Learn how to defend their technique. It is definitely defendable.

[...]

Alright if you are anyone else tells me a specific combo that you are distasteful of I will provide a way of defending.

As I've already said, a counter to a combo setup will almost never deal as much damage. You will only be able to do so if you first counter their combo setup and then do the same combo they were trying.

Gifs: https://imgur.com/a/kyF1V7V
I've also taken screenshots to show why it's impossible to block the rest of the hits. I'll also say that these gifs show the damage output IF you are caught, you can expect resistance from the ones who atleast know how to do so. It'll still be incredibly hard. These gifs should give you an idea of how low ceiling melee is fought, and how one opponent is usually caught out and can barely do anything about it thereafter.

If someone is camping a low ceiling spot and you know it's a hard counter for you personally, find some other options. Grab a gun or throw something at him. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=245

Approaching certain low ceiling spots is impossible without being in their direct melee range. You can't just pop in without the opponent easily giving hell, you can try it yourself but they're always in an advantage since they're there first. If you intend to shoot them from another angle, then they simply won't be there. If you then try to approach them again, they can go right back. So good luck finding a proper counter.

Apart from that, I'm confused about Luantics argument. He's telling us to adapt and find ways to counter strategies, and at the same time admitting that there aren't any good counters to certain strategies? If my memories correct, then he's the very same person to demand a "proper" counter to blocking, and instead of just punching enemies after they've blocked, advocates for an entirely new move. And thereafter even regrets it due to how powerful the grab was made? That's hypocritical. And if you're gonna pull that argument yourself, atleast let us roll like before in Pre-Alpha, and live with double punches and the ability to roll back from any swing.


Seriously, if anyone has a proper counter (Since you usually have to get close to them) then I'd love to know. But it'll definitely be just doing the same back to them, after blocking incredibly quick hits and avoiding the grab. I also want to say that the kick will always atleast stagger you, which still leaves you vulnerable to grabs.

[RickAvory]

I will never understand the hatred for combos and someone who is skillful melee. Learn how to defend their technique. It is definitely defendable.

[...]

Alright if you are anyone else tells me a specific combo that you are distasteful of I will provide a way of defending.

As I've already said, a counter to a combo setup will almost never deal as much damage. You will only be able to do so if you first counter their combo setup and then do the same combo they were trying.

Gifs: https://imgur.com/a/kyF1V7V
I've also taken screenshots to show why it's impossible to block the rest of the hits. I'll also say that these gifs show the damage output IF you are caught, you can expect resistance from the ones who atleast know how to do so. It'll still be incredibly hard. These gifs should give you an idea of how low ceiling melee is fought, and how one opponent is usually caught out and can barely do anything about it thereafter.

If someone is camping a low ceiling spot and you know it's a hard counter for you personally, find some other options. Grab a gun or throw something at him. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=245

Approaching certain low ceiling spots is impossible without being in their direct melee range. You can't just pop in without the opponent easily giving hell, you can try it yourself but they're always in an advantage since they're there first. If you intend to shoot them from another angle, then they simply won't be there. If you then try to approach them again, they can go right back. So good luck finding a proper counter.

Apart from that, I'm confused about Luantics argument. He's telling us to adapt and find ways to counter strategies, and at the same time admitting that there aren't any good counters to certain strategies? If my memories correct, then he's the very same person to demand a "proper" counter to blocking, and instead of just punching enemies after they've blocked, advocates for an entirely new move. And thereafter even regrets it due to how powerful the grab was made? That's hypocritical. And if you're gonna pull that argument yourself, atleast let us roll like before in Pre-Alpha, and live with double punches and the ability to roll back from any swing.


Seriously, if anyone has a proper counter (Since you usually have to get close to them) then I'd love to know. But it'll definitely be just doing the same back to them, after blocking incredibly quick hits and avoiding the grab. I also want to say that the kick will always atleast stagger you, which still leaves you vulnerable to grabs.

Block the first hit, high kick off ceiling then either see if you can quickly obtain a grab or run away. I admit that if you get caught in a stun it is hard to get out of, but that is literally the point of hitstun. The best way to prevent a combo is to not be vulnerable to one.

Gurt is right. Grab a gun, throw a weapon (preferably temp) and run. That also works in basically every situation. I would also like to add that in the gif you provide, you had a Katana while the opponent was empty handed. I understand there were limitations since you had to use a bot, but this is important. If you are going up against a katana versus fists, you are at a VAST disadvantage especially with a low ceiling or near chest highs. The range mixed with its damage is far greater than fists, and as a defensive player you should not attempt to face a player with that advantage.

[mgtr14]

[...]

Block the first hit, high kick off ceiling then either see if you can quickly obtain a grab or run away. I admit that if you get caught in a stun it is hard to get out of, but that is literally the point of hitstun. The best way to prevent a combo is to not be vulnerable to one.

You wouldn't be able to kick in time if the attacker does it all right.
Melee has boiled down to just doing combos until either one dies. A grab usually ends it, or someone is stunlocked almost completely throughout until they're dead. If you're asking me to "not be vulnerable", then you're asking me to not melee at all. I made this thread because combos are everywhere.
Remember when I reported about the double hit move? People thought that it would just be an "advanced move", but eventually literally everyone was doing it, and that led to Gurt nerfing rolls and buffing recovery rolls. These combos are even worse than just double hits, and I wonder what'll be done against that.

Gurt is right. Grab a gun, throw a weapon (preferably temp) and run. That also works in basically every situation.

I've already responded to this, read my reply to Gurt.

I would also like to add that in the gif you provide, you had a Katana while the opponent was empty handed. I understand there were limitations since you had to use a bot, but this is important. If you are going up against a katana versus fists, you are at a VAST disadvantage especially with a low ceiling or near chest highs. The range mixed with its damage is far greater than fists, and as a defensive player you should not attempt to face a player with that advantage.

These gifs were mostly for examples, I've also uploaded one where I kill the bot using only fists if the rest wasn't convincing enough.
No, you will almost either have a weapon or makeshift at hand, and you have the advantage of positioning if you're in that spot first. If someone drops down, they have to block an entire combo, and still be vulnerable to staggers where they can be grabbed. Even if I have a katana and approach someone, they can still output a ridiculous amount of damage, and they'll be ready to do it again while I'm knocked down.

If one can't fight such a fight anymore or don't have you in a stunlock any longer, they'll run.

[RickAvory]

[...]

Block the first hit, high kick off ceiling then either see if you can quickly obtain a grab or run away. I admit that if you get caught in a stun it is hard to get out of, but that is literally the point of hitstun. The best way to prevent a combo is to not be vulnerable to one.

You wouldn't be able to kick in time if the attacker does it all right.
Melee has boiled down to just doing combos until either one dies. A grab usually ends it, or someone is stunlocked almost completely throughout until they're dead. If you're asking me to "not be vulnerable", then you're asking me to not melee at all. I made this thread because combos are everywhere.
Remember when I reported about the double hit move? People thought that it would just be an "advanced move", but eventually literally everyone was doing it, and that led to Gurt nerfing rolls and buffing recovery rolls. These combos are even worse than just double hits, and I wonder what'll be done against that.

Gurt is right. Grab a gun, throw a weapon (preferably temp) and run. That also works in basically every situation.

I've already responded to this, read my reply to Gurt.

I would also like to add that in the gif you provide, you had a Katana while the opponent was empty handed. I understand there were limitations since you had to use a bot, but this is important. If you are going up against a katana versus fists, you are at a VAST disadvantage especially with a low ceiling or near chest highs. The range mixed with its damage is far greater than fists, and as a defensive player you should not attempt to face a player with that advantage.

These gifs were mostly for examples, I've also uploaded one where I kill the bot using only fists if the rest wasn't convincing enough.
No, will almost either have a weapon or makeshift at hand, and you have the advantage of positioning if you're in that spot first. If someone drops down, they have to block an entire combo, and still be vulnerable to staggers where they can be grabbed. Even if I have a katana and approach someone, they can still output a ridiculous amount of damage, and they'll be ready to do it again while I'm knocked down.

If one can't fight such a fight anymore or don't have you in a stunlock any longer, they'll run.

Why wouldn’t you be able to kick? Kicking is a very fast melee attack that can easily be commingled with blocking especially when a ceiling is low. I will try to provide a video countering this if I can find someone to test this out. I have been in these situations thousands of times. If I die it most likely boils down to either my error or overpowerment of weapons.

“combo’s until someone dies” This was mentioned somewhere else by someone else on this forum, and I will give you the same response I gave to them. I have no idea what game you are playing, but this just doesn’t happen. When see two skillful players meleeing each other, I see fast movement and constant contentment of power and stunning. I don’t just see one individual in control the entire time.

As for “no one having a temp weapon on them”... well... you should. If you want my personal opinion, I like to always have a temp weapon on or around me, because I can use it’s range, unique dropping mechanics, as well as just using it as a quick throw stun to get out of difficult situations.

[mgtr14]

[...]

Why wouldn’t you be able to kick? Kicking is a very fast melee attack that can easily be commingled with blocking especially when a ceiling is low. I will try to provide a video countering this if I can find someone to test this out. I have been in these situations thousands of times. If I die it most likely boils down to either my error or overpowerment of weapons.

“combo’s until someone dies” This was mentioned somewhere else by someone else on this forum, and I will give you the same response I gave to them. I have no idea what game you are playing, but this just doesn’t happen. When see two skillful players meleeing each other, I see fast movement and constant contentment of power and stunning. I don’t just see one individual in control the entire time.

If you simply think "we're not playing the same game" then just post a video already, I'll take video over your word just like you will take video over my words. I've given examples of how much damage the combos do and ease of performance, I can maybe get footage of a real melee fight eventually. You can't always "just block and kick" because of the rapid fire melee attacks. If I now know that you may block the first hit, then I will simply not bank on landing combos but instead spam.

As for “no one having a temp weapon on them”... well... you should. If you want my personal opinion, I like to always have a temp weapon on or around me, because I can use it’s range, unique dropping mechanics, as well as just using it as a quick throw stun to get out of difficult situations.

Cool, I doubt it'll get you out of low ceiling combos.

[RickAvory]

[...]

Why wouldn’t you be able to kick? Kicking is a very fast melee attack that can easily be commingled with blocking especially when a ceiling is low. I will try to provide a video countering this if I can find someone to test this out. I have been in these situations thousands of times. If I die it most likely boils down to either my error or overpowerment of weapons.

“combo’s until someone dies” This was mentioned somewhere else by someone else on this forum, and I will give you the same response I gave to them. I have no idea what game you are playing, but this just doesn’t happen. When see two skillful players meleeing each other, I see fast movement and constant contentment of power and stunning. I don’t just see one individual in control the entire time.

If you simply think "we're not playing the same game" then just post a video already, I'll take video over your word just like you will take video over mine. I've given examples of how much damage the combos do and ease of performance, I can maybe get footage of a real melee fight eventually. You can't always "just block and kick" because of the rapid fire melee attacks. If I now know that you may block the first hit, then I will simply not bank on landing combos but instead spam.

As for “no one having a temp weapon on them”... well... you should. If you want my personal opinion, I like to always have a temp weapon on or around me, because I can use it’s range, unique dropping mechanics, as well as just using it as a quick throw stun to get out of difficult situations.

Cool, I doubt it'll get you out of low ceiling combos.

Sorry. I think I misunderstood the argument. You can’t escape the combo once your in it, but you can stop it from occurring prior. I still don’t reallt see nothing incorrect with that though.

[Iliyan]

Ok tnx for OkOkOK for making this post, i must brag that i encuraged him to do it especialy for regarding the cealing bug wich is the moust stupid persistant op bug that exist in melee at the moment in SFD. And for all the people that think cealing bug (yes its a bug) is there because DEVS whant it there, well let me brake it for you, they dont whant it to exist they especialy do all the maps with high cealing for a reason people, 2º i supose thay are lazy/have beter things to do like give us awosame new toys to play with than deliberatly make Melee Island esencialy a useles map and make more people hate them. I consider that we are at a point were dev dont whant that bug, they will fix it some day (like the walling stun combo, because you cant make maps with no walls but you can make maps with high ceilings!!!!) but its not something that they will waste the time on at least now.
Olso i love when people defend bugs on the report bug topic section by replaying to the poster defending the bug claiming its intentional only to receive in X time a massage from gurt saying "tnx for the report fixed in x.xx version of the game"

I mean dont tell me that you dIdnt know that Melee Island is more about bugs than a melee map if you whant a real melee map you play the special Mortal Kombat maps, they are beautiful and might not or do have slight lag from saturation of smoke but who the hell cares lag is not a bug its a reality (have fiber optic internet and still have lag in alot of games i cry internet speed is a lie)(theres no cake !_! the cake is a lie!).

If any one managed to read this and dont think they wasted their precious life time, lol and made them smile once or twice tnx and congrats.

[Hjarpe]

First off, there is no "ceiling bug". Being able to jump attack without land-kneeling when there is a ceiling directly above you is a logical consequence of the game's rules. So is the ability to jump attack without land-kneeling when dropping from a table or a crate. The rules that enable these techniques are pretty arbitrary, but the good thing is that they encourage you to think about your surroundings, which is what the game is all about.

A little history: Over the years, we have fixed many attack combos that we felt were exploitative, because they were easy to pull off, did tons of damage to a stunlocked player, and weren't limited to extremely specific circumstances. Some players felt that removing these combos was taking away complexity and lowering the skill ceiling, but we think it was the right choice. But no matter what we do, players are gonna figure out new techniques to optimize their damage output. Right now we feel there aren't many combos that are truly exploitative. The ones that do exist require specific circumstances to work, and are therefore easily avoidable most of the time.

We very rarely encounter these combos in-game, probably because we don't play on melee-only maps. If you want to play on melee-only maps you are welcome to, but we are not interested in catering to that playstyle, and we never will. At its core, SFD is about interaction between many different systems - melee, shooting, explosions, fire, physics, environmental hazards... If you strip away everything except the melee, the game is no longer dynamic and therefore (in my opinion) no fun at all.

[Ab Hab]

Didn't they add tech-rolling? I feel like that would be really helpful in some of those gifs way up there.

[mgtr14]

First off, there is no "ceiling bug". Being able to jump attack without land-kneeling when there is a ceiling directly above you is a logical consequence of the game's rules. So is the ability to jump attack without land-kneeling when dropping from a table or a crate. The rules that enable these techniques are pretty arbitrary, but the good thing is that they encourage you to think about your surroundings, which is what the game is all about.

(I wasn't the one who said that there is a "ceiling bug")
While combos and possibilities encourage you to be aware of your surroundings, my only problem is how devastating the combos can be, and how you're stunned throughout. Being simply aware of your surroundings isn't enough with these combos, since there is an opportunity everywhere. You have to know how to counter them, and even if you do then it's hard because the counters aren't so reliable. You won't always hit someone who jumps onto a crate next to you for some reason, I don't know what's up with that. You won't be able to do anything if someone tackles you under a low ceiling, and approaching someone who is camping under a low ceiling or has longer range is usually suicide.

A little history: Over the years, we have fixed many attack combos that we felt were exploitative, because they were easy to pull off...

The "double hit" was at first hard to pull off, but you eventually had to nerf it because players got used to it and it was done consistently.

did tons of damage to a stunlocked player,

Combos do that.

and weren't limited to extremely specific circumstances.

I've taken a picture of every official map and circled in every spot where you can combo. This includes the small space inside door portals, on top of ladders, ledges, and so on. I have also circled in seemingly empty spots, but if you know the map then you know what makes combos possible. I've also only circled in static places (Unchanging/they're always there. Although I may have accidentaly circled 1-2 spots that actually don't count). This isn't counting objects at all. low ceilings/static spots just let you do it every time and can't be destroyed or altered. https://imgur.com/a/QLZuhBa (Includes 3 gifs of me using combos, notice how the opponents go from "Quite alive" to "Almost dead" quickly.)

If you've got any questions about how any spots actually lead to combos, I can make some gifs to show you.

Some players felt that removing these combos was taking away complexity and lowering the skill ceiling, but we think it was the right choice. But no matter what we do, players are gonna figure out new techniques to optimize their damage output. Right now we feel there aren't many combos that are truly exploitative. The ones that do exist require specific circumstances to work, and are therefore easily avoidable most of the time.

Double hits weren't complex or "high skill" at all. Neither are these combos. They're easy to pull off if you know how to do them, just like the double hit. They can deal alot of damage, and basically deny a normal fight that would require more strategy and predictions that a normal melee fight brings. I'm in no way talking about turning melee into a "slap-fight" or whatever you want to call it, melee is as dynamic as it is because of objects. But the combos are easy, destructive and end fights too quickly.

If you think you want that, then please play the game a little more often. Play with good players or players that know how to use these combos. And if you still really want those combos, then I have nothing more to say.

We very rarely encounter these combos in-game, probably because we don't play on melee-only maps. If you want to play on melee-only maps you are welcome to, but we are not interested in catering to that playstyle, and we never will. At its core, SFD is about interaction between many different systems - melee, shooting, explosions, fire, physics, environmental hazards... If you strip away everything except the melee, the game is no longer dynamic and therefore (in my opinion) no fun at all.

This entire section came from the assumption that I play on Melee maps or that I think these combos happen frequently because I play on melee maps, but I don't. I've only played on Blurry's or Mulefire's servers that only host official maps or well-made custom maps.

Didn't they add tech-rolling? I feel like that would be really helpful in some of those gifs way up there.

They don't help. You can't even roll after taking such hits.