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Unavoidable smash.

All reported bugs that's actually by design.
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mgtr14
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Re: Unavoidable smash.

Post by mgtr14 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:08 pm

I'm reviving this thread because the move is very easy, it's incredibly common now among (pro) players.

So, I don't think it takes much explaining to figure out why this is bad. This move is like a counter to block, because even if your opponent anticipated the first punch and blocked, the second punch can still be executed and will hit your opponent unless he blocks that one too. Which, we don't do. Since the block is supposed to let us counterattack.

Also, it isn't hard to learn this move. People do it wherever there is something to land on, and they wont do it otherwise unless it kills their opponent.
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Post by Pixir » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:14 pm

combine this move, but instead of punching again you block, so it's ATTACK+ INSTANT JUMP BLOCK, and while you are in mid air you can still spam JUMP ATTACK again.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5csB6ODofg
sorry for bad quality, i'm playing with martians.
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Post by Splinter » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:24 pm

Personally I like that we have this little "trick" in melee. From the perspective of balance, I don't think it's overpowered or abusive. In a flat surface, you will kneel after doing that move, so you are subject to being grabbed after completing your move. If there's an object or ladder near you, you can avoid kneeling, but you still risk getting punched right when you jump, if you don't get the timing right. If that happens, you'll get knocked down and grabbed. You're doing a skillful move that deals 17 damage (2 punches) risking to take 25.5 damage (1 punch + 1 grab) if you don't do it fast enough; basically high-risk, high-reward situation in my opinion.
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Post by Alexbra25 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:56 pm

This is one of the most used moves to start combos, it's like an opener which leads to a lot of possibilities for combos. Without this move, we would practically be forced to do a simple standing melee using just punches, blocks, kicks and grabs. This post by Splinter made it pretty clear why this move isn't OP.
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Post by mgtr14 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:48 pm

Pixir wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:14 pm
combine this move, but instead of punching again you block, so it's ATTACK+ INSTANT JUMP BLOCK, and while you are in mid air you can still spam JUMP ATTACK again.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5csB6ODofg
sorry for bad quality, i'm playing with martians.
I don't have a problem with this, the block doesn't deal damage and it lets us be more mobile. The punch deals damage, is unavoidable, and without chance of retaliation. It even comes when you're supposed to get a counterattack.

Splinter wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:24 pm
Personally I like that we have this little "trick" in melee. From the perspective of balance, I don't think it's overpowered or abusive. In a flat surface, you will kneel after doing that move, so you are subject to being grabbed after completing your move.
So don't do it on flat surfaces. Flat surfaces aren't common in official maps anyways.
Also, melee weapons give you more range so you can land farther away. And even with fists, you may still land far enough. Just be a bit more precise.
Splinter wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:24 pm
If there's an object or ladder near you, you can avoid kneeling, but you still risk getting punched right when you jump, if you don't get the timing right.
If that happens, you'll get knocked down and grabbed. You're doing a skillful move that deals 17 damage (2 punches) risking to take 25.5 damage (1 punch + 1 grab) if you don't do it fast enough; basically high-risk, high-reward situation in my opinion.
Just get used to it, then there'll be no chance of failure. It's just a simple combination of keys that anyone can learn. A↓→↑A and land somewhere safe to avoid retaliation.


Alexbra25 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:56 pm
This is one of the most used moves to start combos, it's like an opener which leads to a lot of possibilities for combos. Without this move, we would practically be forced to do a simple standing melee using just punches, blocks, kicks and grabs. This post by Splinter made it pretty clear why this move isn't OP.
You're thinking about the wrong move, this one can't get a longer combo because you can't chain attacks afterwards quickly enough no matter what.
You're thinking about the smash move where you jump, fall and THEN smash, which I agree is the most common combo starter. In this little combo, you do it right after jumping so both punches hit way too quick.
http://www.youtu.be/ax18C0wK0kw (This video by splinter shows the double hit move.)
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Post by Noble » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:29 pm

That seems like one of those posts with a clear balancement issue but with no good suggestions or ideas on how to change it at all.
I agree with what Splinter said about how this move actually brings a risk, though I think I did and 've seem this before I'm not sure this is 100% possible: After getting the 2 hits in this combo, no matter where the opponent land, you can quickly jump and attack him in mid-air after stun.
I won't say it's not an OP move or look down to what people can do with this by doing that frequently, but this never ever bothered me and I don't think it will unless a change in the game melee is made in favor to this. However, I think lowering the stun time or raising the punch interval is not a good way to 'fix' this. I'd rather discord with any alteration of this kind.
Anyways, before anyone come with an idea for this, please consider how much it will affect the whole game.
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Post by Sree » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:18 pm

I gotta agree with @mgtr14 in this topic. This move affects grabs a lot when it's executed really fast. Like mgtr said, This move can be used to damage players even if they block our initial punch which drastically reduces the consistency of blocks. blocks already have way too many counters like waiting and moreover it has an easy strong counter grab, this move doesn't need to be another counter to blocks, it makes blocks way too inconsistent, it feels like it's much more safer to not block at all in sfd these days because it's just way too penalizing since players have adapted to countering it by many ways without any effort.
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Post by mgtr14 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:54 pm

Noble wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:29 pm
That seems like one of those posts with a clear balancement issue but with no good suggestions or ideas on how to change it at all.
I agree with what Splinter said about how this move actually brings a risk, though I think I did and 've seem this before I'm not sure this is 100% possible: After getting the 2 hits in this combo, no matter where the opponent land, you can quickly jump and attack him in mid-air after stun.
Just maybe, but only seen it rarely. If you want to avoid getting hit like that, just be precise and turn away from your opponent after hitting him, or have more range than him.
Noble wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:29 pm
I won't say it's not an OP move or look down to what people can do with this by doing that frequently, but this never ever bothered me and I don't think it will unless a change in the game melee is made in favor to this. However, I think lowering the stun time or raising the punch interval is not a good way to 'fix' this. I'd rather discord with any alteration of this kind.
Anyways, before anyone come with an idea for this, please consider how much it will affect the whole game.
I really only intended to start discussion and show how this move breaks melee a bit.
My suggestion on how to fix it? I don't know. Lowering stun time or raising the punch interval is a horrible idea, I can atleast say that.

The thing is, I still want the ability to roll after doing such an action. That's why melee is the way it is now, because you can cancel your actions more quickly and you have to jump out of the roll to make the most of it.

I'd say that we should let players roll like that, but that double hit is a seriously broken move. Maybe make counterattacks quicker? Just slightly increase the time before you can roll away? I want to atleast start discussion about a possible fix, I'm sure most people can agree that this move is pretty broken.
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Rick Sanchez
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Post by Rick Sanchez » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:26 pm

Lunatic wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:21 am
Yeah, he's right, it's much easier to do in slomo. That said, doing this in a normal game is sooo difficult! The window is incredibly tight, as any moment the opponent slips out of hitstun, they can block the rising hit. I'd say it's fine.
It's not too difficult and anything but fine! Given to the right hands it can ruin a new players day, or even experienced, because of its unavoidable nature. Mythologic pls fix
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Del Poncho
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Post by Del Poncho » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:24 pm

Gurt wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:43 pm
I just want to clarify that this move is very valid. If you happen to get in a hit that's fine but after jumping you need to land. And while in the air you can't attack again. And when you land you will be forced to crouch for a short moment (if you land from where you started). I would say there's plenty of time for the opponent to adapt and maybe even hit you for free.
Yes, the kneeling time COULD be a malus to this move, but flat surfaces are so goddamn rare that any decent player will never kneel after doing this move.
And in the rare occasions that you find yourself on flat ground, if the enemy has a melee weapon with decent damage (such as a katana, or a chain), he can just do this from safe distance and jump away to safety, too far to be hit.


If this was a counterable move, I would be all up for it. But the problem is that it offers a free hit on the defender, without ways to really react to it.
Also, it's quite lame to see this done in every possible occasion while playing. Since it's a completely safe attack with guaranteed results, everybody is just spamming this lately. It's quite rare to see someone use anything that isn't this move, and to be honest, it's not exactly a pleasure to the eyes.


And for what matters an eventual fix for this, wouldn't it be possible to prevent players from rolling for a split second after they punch?

OR

Prevent people from jumping (or jump+hitting, but that seems more tricky to program) before reaching a certain point of the roll.

I mean, it wouldn't mess with the rest of the timings in the combo, or anything at all.
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