MythoLogic Interactive Forums

Remember when you could hit your opponent twice by rolling and quickly jumping? These moves achieve the same effect. These new moves are situational - but not by alot. All you need is to avoid kneeling and you can hit your opponent twice. So you can do this off of objects, under low ceilings, when jumping onto an object, while jumping up stairs, while jumping up from a ladder, etc.

https://imgur.com/a/wQgykJ9
The last gif shows that even if you do block the kick, the stagger leaves you completely open for attack eitherway.

What I can see and tell it's by design.

Let's be clear here.

- Getting a two-hit combo is possible and not a bug when you avoid kneeling.
- Avoiding the kneeling after landing is possible and by design. This heavily depends on the map layout and where in a map you decide to engage in combat and how you move around the environment.
- You can hit someone laying on the ground by crouching+punching and this is also by design. We don't have invincibility frames in SFD (you can get immune against stun after being stunned a lot but that's another mechanic).

All I can see in the gif is that you avoid the kneeling after landing because the low ceiling (due to map design). Then you punch your opponent again. Don't know what else there is to it.

It's situational but can be repeated in low-ceiling map designs and that's why you have to take care in such situations.

If you think I missed something then you will have to clarify what you mean as you have reported this in the bug section - but I can't see any bug.

If you want to design a map with all low ceiling you will just have to keep this in mind. If you don't utilize the low ceiling to avoid kneeling then your opponent will.

(Moved this from the Bugs topics to the Ideas and Suggestion topics)

Gurt wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:47 pm

What I can see and tell it's by design.

Let's be clear here.

- Getting a two-hit combo is possible and not a bug when you avoid kneeling.
- Avoiding the kneeling after landing is possible and by design. This heavily depends on the map layout and where in a map you decide to engage in combat and how you move around the environment.
- You can hit someone laying on the ground by crouching+punching and this is also by design. We don't have invincibility frames in SFD (you can get immune against stun after being stunned a lot but that's another mechanic).

All I can see in the gif is that you avoid the kneeling after landing because the low ceiling (due to map design). Then you punch your opponent again. Don't know what else there is to it.

It's situational but can be repeated in low-ceiling map designs and that's why you have to take care in such situations.

If you think I missed something then you will have to clarify what you mean as you have reported this in the bug section - but I can't see any bug.

If you want to design a map with all low ceiling you will just have to keep this in mind. If you don't utilize the low ceiling to avoid kneeling then your opponent will.

The exploit turns out to be by design? It's like you're creating these hard to achieve/timing based moves on purpose, and then don't treat the game as competitive? You should, because these move sets give you a GIANT leg up. Contradictory imo, but whatever.

Rick Sanchez wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:28 pm

The exploit turns out to be by design? It's like you're creating these hard to achieve/timing based moves on purpose, and then don't treat the game as competitive? You should, because these move sets give you a GIANT leg up. Contradictory imo, but whatever.

I think it's not always about deciding if something should be designed favoring the competitive side or the casual side. It's also about whether something is fun. And for me, combos make melee much more interesting and fun. I don't consider this an "exploit", because it requires some skill and good timing. Not to mention that official maps rarely have low ceilings like that.

Splinter wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:31 pm

I think it's not always about deciding if something should be designed favoring the competitive side or the casual side. It's also about whether something is fun. And for me, combos make melee much more interesting and fun. I don't consider this an "exploit", because it requires some skill and good timing. Not to mention that official maps rarely have low ceilings like that.

these exploits favor low-ping players. they rely on fast reaction time and a mid-to-high ping will mean your inputs will either not be fast enough to perform these moves well or will be swallowed whole by the game since the time window is so short. it's no longer your regular melee "i failed to foresee this move", it's "fuck i simply cannot respond in time even before the move comes out", and that's bad design.

i don't see where the fun in "oh shit i just realized i'm under a low ceiling and going to suffer unavoidable damage" is, especially when you're one of said mid-to-high ping players who simply cannot defend against or execute these moves on time. do i avoid these places altogther now because my ping isn't optimal?

forget about failing to execute the move in the first place, where is the fun in having places on the map have one reliable strategy to use over others? one that is so contradictory to the game's basic premises too? why have a cooldown on a move that can be bypassed only in very specific situations and not others?

just because the tutorial doesn't teach this and some parts of the community were made aware of it doesn't make this some sort of "advanced technique". it's an exploit and fixing it is too much of a hassle, if even possible considering the box2D engine, hence the "by design" tag. it's been like this for ages though so i don't expect this to change

Should we design all game mechanics in mind just in case someone plays with 666+ ping? No, that's not how we have developed SFD. We have designed it with < 100 ping in mind and melee works well in these settings. You can use the ping argument in any aspect of the game because the higher ping you have, the less time you will have to react on things whether it being gunfights or melee fights. You need some wits about how you can use the environment to your advantage, which comes with experience which comes with playing the game which comes with both dying and winning.

If you don't kneel after falling you can attack again and that has always been our intention as far as I can recall. We want to encourage players to jump up on crates, run down from barrels and generally move around to get those extra hits in. Moving around/jumping is also not free as you can get hit and knocked down. Melee is a bit of a guessing game too what you think your opponent will do next and how you should counter it.

- "But you patches this and that thing with the melee before... " We have over the course of development been fixing extreme edge-case unbreakable/stunlock combos of 4-5 + moves and actual bugs and exploits NOT intentionally designed by adjusting mechanics as we see fit and will continue to do so. But don't focus the whole melee-debate again on some extreme edge-case like that's the ONLY thing you do in melee.

We have low-ceiling rooms in our official maps too but they are very few. Hotel has some place with low-ceilings where you can bash your opponent pretty hard if you want (if your opponent decide to venture into the low-ceiling). Use the environment to your advantage, whether it encourages you to shoot or use melee is up to you depending on your opponents equipment, skill and what you're good at. We haven't designed SFD to be on equal terms all the time. You should have a harder time against someone with a chainsaw in melee than shooting someone with a M60 far away. Goes with the game design.

I don't think low ceilings automatically are dangerous places where skill no longer counts and where melee can't be counteracted. I think low ceilings offer more reward for the more aggressive melee player in a good way.

If you decide to make an entire map with low ceiling you will just have to keep this in mind. It's like designing a flat surface map and then say that the M60 is overpowered when someone gets it as there is no cover. That's how I see it.

Splinter wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:31 pm

Rick Sanchez wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:28 pm

The exploit turns out to be by design? It's like you're creating these hard to achieve/timing based moves on purpose, and then don't treat the game as competitive? You should, because these move sets give you a GIANT leg up. Contradictory imo, but whatever.

I think it's not always about deciding if something should be designed favoring the competitive side or the casual side. It's also about whether something is fun. And for me, combos make melee much more interesting and fun. I don't consider this an "exploit", because it requires some skill and good timing. Not to mention that official maps rarely have low ceilings like that.

Fun is different for casuals and competitive players. Casuals may not get too deep into the game, and therefore fall victim to better players who use a variety of tricks and combos in this game. (If you have a sharp weapon, you can perform 45+ damage combos). There are alot of unforeseen details in this game that is left to the player to discover, and even if you do, it could be too hard to learn it at all.

I also don't see how something that makes melee shorter in general (As short as a single combo nowadays) makes it more interesting. Alot of people think you can just "struggle" or "counter" these moves, but completely avoiding those combos means that you don't melee at all. That's the problem, it's inevitable in melee and when it does turn up it can end a fightdue to it's power.

Gurt wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:21 pm

Should we design all game mechanics in mind just in case someone plays with 666+ ping? No, that's not how we have developed SFD. We have designed it with < 100 ping in mind and melee works well in these settings. You can use the ping argument in any aspect of the game because the higher ping you have, the less time you will have to react on things whether it being gunfights or melee fights. You need some wits about how you can use the environment to your advantage, which comes with experience which comes with playing the game which comes with both dying and winning.

If you don't kneel after falling you can attack again and that has always been our intention as far as I can recall. We want to encourage players to jump up on crates, run down from barrels and generally move around to get those extra hits in. Moving around/jumping is also not free as you can get hit and knocked down. Melee is a bit of a guessing game too what you think your opponent will do next and how you should counter it.

- "But you patches this and that thing with the melee before... " We have over the course of development been fixing extreme edge-case unbreakable/stunlock combos of 4-5 + moves and actual bugs and exploits NOT intentionally designed by adjusting mechanics as we see fit and will continue to do so. But don't focus the whole melee-debate again on some extreme edge-case like that's the ONLY thing you do in melee.

We have low-ceiling rooms in our official maps too but they are very few. Hotel has some place with low-ceilings where you can bash your opponent pretty hard if you want (if your opponent decide to venture into the low-ceiling). Use the environment to your advantage, whether it encourages you to shoot or use melee is up to you depending on your opponents equipment, skill and what you're good at. We haven't designed SFD to be on equal terms all the time. You should have a harder time against someone with a chainsaw in melee than shooting someone with a M60 far away. Goes with the game design.

I don't think low ceilings automatically are dangerous places where skill no longer counts and where melee can't be counteracted. I think low ceilings offer more reward for the more aggressive melee player in a good way.

If you decide to make an entire map with low ceiling you will just have to keep this in mind. It's like designing a flat surface map and then say that the M60 is overpowered when someone gets it as there is no cover. That's how I see it.

I said in the OP that this isn't limited to low ceilings, it can be performed at any place where you can avoid kneeling.
https://imgur.com/a/QLZuhBa I've taken a picture of every official map and circled in where you can perform these combos. This doesn't include objects at all.

This move is a way to bypass blocks and deal extra damage easily. If avoiding kneels is the only way to deal this much damage, then people may not try to melee at all if they aren't able to do it. If that's alright with you, then fine.

In map design, it can be quite inevitable. If you want to avoid such spots completely, then you're going to restrict yourself alot. This also includes elevators, objects at all, any low ceiling, etc. If you're playing on a map with any such spots, then avoiding those combos means not meleeing near those spots at all, which is also very restrictive to the player.

Gurt wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:21 pm

Should we design all game mechanics in mind just in case someone plays with 666+ ping? No, that's not how we have developed SFD. We have designed it with < 100 ping in mind and melee works well in these settings. You can use the ping argument in any aspect of the game because the higher ping you have, the less time you will have to react on things whether it being gunfights or melee fights. [...]

reacting to the execution of different melee moves (blocking a kick for example) is NOT the same as reacting to a no-kneel double move. the time frame required to execute the latter is much tighter than the former and you can see that in the gifs @mgtr14 provided. it's difficult to pull off with yellow ping that is less than 100, and impossible to react to if you're on the receiving end. these exploits highly favor the host, whether you successfully managed to employ them or not; if you do you got free damage, if you didn't the opponent lost ground or lost time trying to block unavoidable damage.

this is the equivalent of having the first punch in a 3-punch-combo deal twice the damage because the animation of the 2nd punch doesn't play. why have a cooldown if it's not in effect? your "intended" play is centered around avoiding a mechanic you introduced so exploits like these don't exist. i can't tell you your vision or intentions with the game but i find it silly the meta is centered around avoiding a cooldown you introduced to fix problems and you're fine with this.

this has nothing to do with "guessing" or "using the environment to your advantage", it is literally damage you cannot avoid (block the first punch but not the second, or vice versa). "lol just don't fight next to objects, ladders, stairs and low ceilings", really? that's the entire map in a nutshell

mgtr14 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:12 pm

This move is a way to bypass blocks and deal extra damage easily.

Avoid kneeling means you can quickly perform a second attack. If the opponent blocks the first one they will not have enough time to block a second one if they start to stagger or being knocked down which can happen from jump attacks (depending on your timing). This is intentional. By design. Calculated. We want moving around in melee to be encouraged if the environment allows you. (If you're the victim, you can't react to the second attack here as you're being staggered or knocked down. e.g. incapacitated)

The specific punch+roll+jump+punch combo was a melee exploit as you could roll directly after the first punch hit frame, roll for one frame, jump the next frame and punch shortly after if you timed all your input well. No move to avoid kneeling was required here which was the main problem.

---
As developers we have a certain play style and it's impossible for us to test all possibilities in melee or any other aspect of the game's mechanics.
- One day you think: Of course you should be able to jump at any time when you roll (this wasn't always the case in earlier version of SFD if I recall correctly!)
- Another day: You should be able to start rolling at any time during melee attacks (this wasn't always the case in earlier version of SFD, causing you to miss a punch while someone starts blasting you with a shotgun just because you missed that disarm-punch!)
- From ancient times you programmed jumps to cancel and reset all actions.

Put them all togheter and you get that specific punch+roll+jump+punch combo which wasn't never intentionally designed or foreseen.
One day we may get a bug report that's well explained that we can understand in detail, identify the specific play style in action and change the mechanics of the game to avoid the exploit.

Melee has been riddled with these kind of examples as it's just not aim-and-shoot. Melee is moving around (climbing, running, sprinting, rolling, crouching, falling) and attacking or blocking with different timings and different combination of move sets. It's inevitable some exploits will be found and abused until someone brings it up to us. Please, just don't think we're making up things as we go along. Developing a complex game is not easy as some might think.
---

Gurt wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:00 pm

[...] Melee has been riddled with these kind of examples as it's just not aim-and-shoot. Melee is moving around (climbing, running, sprinting, rolling, crouching, falling) and attacking or blocking with different timings and different combination of move sets. It's inevitable some exploits will be found and abused until someone brings it up to us. Please, just don't think we're making up things as we go along. Developing a complex game is not easy as some might think.

this thread brings the most broken aspect of melee combat to light yet you write it off as being by design like you did the first time it was brought up. you explained this perfectly yourself:

Gurt wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:00 pm

Avoid kneeling means you can quickly perform a second attack. If the opponent blocks the first one they will not have enough time to block a second one if they start to stagger or being knocked down which can happen from jump attacks (depending on your timing). [...] (If you're the victim, you can't react to the second attack here as you're being staggered or knocked down. e.g. incapacitated). [...]

avoiding kneeling means you get another free hit that the opponent cannot react to because you "moved" and are somehow entitled to free damage. this is okay how? if the entire point of the kneel is to be ignore by exloiting objects and low ceilings you might as well remove it altogether; is the goal here dynamic combat? return the kick into shotgun combos and incorporating gunplay into kicking then. this used to be the meta back in pre-alpha and kneel cooldown was introduced to kill it. as far as i'm concerned that was way more fun than what we have now. now the meta is kick into grab into throw people off map edges, it seems to me just as broken, and just as accessible.

It's fully intentional to not kneel if you land with low velocity (e.g. run off the edge of an object, jump up on a crate etc...). Jumping up on a low ceiling means you also have low velocity when you land as you don't fall as far.
>>> We want to encourage players to move around in melee combat <<<
I think this topic explains our thoughts on melee pretty well and this is nothing new viewtopic.php?f=19&t=556&p=6840#p6840 .

If you want a whole why-does-the-melee-system-work-as-it-does kind of topic I think we have shared our views over several topics throughout the years. It all boils down to game design. A simple answer would be : Because we want the melee to work like this and we think it works good compared to other alternatives we have tried throughout the years of testing and it aligns with our vision of the game.

KliPeH wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:28 pm

avoiding kneeling means you get another free hit that the opponent cannot react to because you "moved" and are somehow entitled to free damage. this is okay how?

Why specifically is this NOT okay? My opinion has always been that it encourages you think about your environments in a pretty organic way.

if the entire point of the kneel is to be ignore by exloiting objects and low ceilings you might as well remove it altogether;

The point of the kneel is to prevent jump attack spamming in the general case (i.e. no exploitable terrain), which was a REAL problem in the past as it meant there was rarely a reason to use anything BUT jump attacks, which led to less variety.

this has nothing to do with "guessing" or "using the environment to your advantage", it is literally damage you cannot avoid (block the first punch but not the second, or vice versa). "lol just don't fight next to objects, ladders, stairs and low ceilings", really? that's the entire map in a nutshell

"Cannot avoid" is relative. You cannot avoid a trap after you've walked into it, no. You can choose not to walk into it, or lay the exact same trap yourself. Ideally we want people to fight in every possible part of the map, and use every dirty trick in the book (bar actual cheating) to win. If one player doesn't use the dirty trick for some reason, then they obviously stand less of a chance. Their fault.

now the meta is kick into grab into throw people off map edges

I don't see how the entire meta can be built around a situational move. Even if it IS the dominant meta, I don't see why it's so horrible when both sides have access to the same cheap move. Again, do it yourself, or don't directly confront the guy who does it. Let's not forget that melee isn't your only option: SFD is about the big picture (uUnless you're playing on a melee map, which, again, isn't what the game is designed for).

I feel like we're repeating the same old argument. In the interest of steelmanning, here are the only three arguments that even remotely make sense to me:

1. It favours players with low ping: True. But that inequality isn't going away no matter what we do, and removing these timing-required combos would lead to a poorer game in other respects. There's no perfect solution to this, so we're prone to leave it as it is.

2. This behaviour isn't tutorialized: Again true, and I understand that this is a barrier to entry for new players jumping into the multiplayer. We could put a loading tip about it I suppose. We haven't so far because we don't want to have too many tips cluttering things up, and this is something that can be learned fairly quickly by simply playing the game. There's no perfect solution to this, so we're prone to leave it as it is.

3. It's gamey and arbitrary: True, but it's not completely unintuitive. I imagine you'd have an easier time landing smoothly after doing a dropkick if you only fell from, say, a table compared to, say, a second-storey window, making the quick recovery seem pretty natural.

Bottom line: avoiding the land-kneel is Fun and Part of the Game; you should do it to! As should your opponent. I'm going on a holiday now.

[Cackles maniacally and jumps on a boat to Denmark].

Hjarpe wrote:Why specifically is this NOT okay? My opinion has always been that it encourages you think about your environments in a pretty organic way.

I'm all for additions that cause the player to have to think more before they act, it's nice to have a mental aspect of a game influence it as much as skill, but this "environment" applies to most of every map which takes away the situational aspect that has justified the move's place in the game for so long.

Pricey wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:01 am

Hjarpe wrote:Why specifically is this NOT okay? My opinion has always been that it encourages you think about your environments in a pretty organic way.

I'm all for additions that cause the player to have to think more before they act, it's nice to have a mental aspect of a game influence it as much as skill, but this "environment" applies to most of every map which takes away the situational aspect that has justified the move's place in the game for so long.

It's true that there's very often one or more objects around to exploit in this way. It's still situational even if the situation is very common. Since I personally really like this side of the melee, I view this as a positive. Having an incentive to jump onto a desk or a crate, with the choice to jump back down kicking and punching, seems really swashbuckling and satisfying to me, much preferrable to just standing still and hitting the enemy.

It's one of those mechanics that helps bring the environment into the melee, much like the cover system helps bring the environment into the shooting. I don't see how the game would be better without it.

it requires some skill and good timing.

yes and thats why i think the game should reward you more for doing these and taking the time to learn the timing etc.
Also i don't think it SHOULD be competitive or casual just for the sake of being competitive or casual

KliPeH wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:38 pm

Gurt wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:21 pm

Should we design all game mechanics in mind just in case someone plays with 666+ ping? No, that's not how we have developed SFD. We have designed it with < 100 ping in mind and melee works well in these settings. You can use the ping argument in any aspect of the game because the higher ping you have, the less time you will have to react on things whether it being gunfights or melee fights. [...]

reacting to the execution of different melee moves (blocking a kick for example) is NOT the same as reacting to a no-kneel double move. the time frame required to execute the latter is much tighter than the former and you can see that in the gifs @mgtr14 provided. it's difficult to pull off with yellow ping that is less than 100, and impossible to react to if you're on the receiving end. these exploits highly favor the host, whether you successfully managed to employ them or not; if you do you got free damage, if you didn't the opponent lost ground or lost time trying to block unavoidable damage.

this is the equivalent of having the first punch in a 3-punch-combo deal twice the damage because the animation of the 2nd punch doesn't play. why have a cooldown if it's not in effect? your "intended" play is centered around avoiding a mechanic you introduced so exploits like these don't exist. i can't tell you your vision or intentions with the game but i find it silly the meta is centered around avoiding a cooldown you introduced to fix problems and you're fine with this.

this has nothing to do with "guessing" or "using the environment to your advantage", it is literally damage you cannot avoid (block the first punch but not the second, or vice versa). "lol just don't fight next to objects, ladders, stairs and low ceilings", really? that's the entire map in a nutshell

Yeah actually it's really NOT that diffucult to pull it off with 100 ping. If you have it in your muscle memory you can just adjust for the delay and woi-la. And Once again, for the "can't avoid the damage" thing, you can almost always, no matter what, pick your battles. This is essential, does this guy look like he's going to be a struggle? If yes, you can always just get the fuck out of dodge or if chasing you just use whatever throwables you have.

All I have to say is that this wasn't a bug-report, I know that this is all within the realm of melee mechanics and this that it's not a bug. I'm bringing these to light because they already are the meta for some veterans, and will become the meta to everyone if they're left as they are.

In general, I disagree with powerful combos because they cut a fight short and have the possibility of making all of melee less varied, because that's the favoured technique. If you're okay with less-varied melee(Which you aren't) and you're okay with fights being cut down to a single combo(Which I'd like to hear your opinion about), then melee won't be about who can consistently outsmart/bait/juke/predict their opponent. It will rather be about who can land the meta-combos first. And no, there won't even come a fight from who can land it first. It either happens or it doesn't nowadays.

This may not seem like a powerful combo by itself, but used in conjunction with everything else it can start dealing massive damage. This double hit is more like a general addition to any combo.
The first combo where I simply punched twice is useless unless that's all it takes to kill your opponent or there's not enough space to kick into grabs.

Here's how it goes: You perform the most powerful combo you can, and that's most likely all you need to do. You could most likely atleast even finish off your opponent thereafter quite easily, or leave them to die. Yes, there is rarely a fight at all due to this, and there shouldn't be. Having an exchange is now the worst thing you can do in melee because there are way faster ways to deal damage.

Here's a short damage table depending on what you can do (I'll be using info from the SFD fan wiki or https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0 for damage values):

If you can only punch twice and don't have any weapons, it's atleast 17 damage right there. It only gets higher with better weapons, and can be performed almost anywhere due to the design of the official maps.

A better combo is to grab, so you would need to punch+kick and then grab. With just fists, that's 28.5 damage. It only gets higher with better weapons.

If you can throw, then you will deal atleast 42 damage. This is just with the pipe wrench, using the punch+kick+grab+throw combo available almost all around the map.
With a knife, 67 damage.
Katana: 65.
Chair, and throwing the chair leg: 47.
Suitcase(Which deals most damage thrown) would require you not punching but only kicking, so you'd deal 37-39 damage.
Trashcan lid: 47. Also, the punch+kick+punch combo would deal 18+3+18 = 39 damage.

There's also a way to perform the throw+punch+kick+grab combo so that your opponent will be left vulnerable to the rest, even if he blocks the throw. This is if you start the combo with throwing, and you have the possibility of immediately starting the rest of the combo after throwing. This works due to how badly and sluggishly blocks catches throws.

If you want such combos that deal more than, or just shy of half of your HP; that can be performed almost anywhere(And completely avoiding this risk means restricting yourself alot); and that are the meta and therefore make melee less varied; then I have nothing more to say.

I just think kneel to stop jump attacks is a flimsy addition when you could just give players something that beats out jump attacks instead. Anti air attacks like an uppercut or something. This limits the players and people just find workarounds for it instead. Eh.

There's barely any thought required. It's all about who lands the combo first.