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A Competitive Mode

Give us your input on how we may improve the game in future versions.
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CadBane
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A Competitive Mode

Post by CadBane » Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:30 am

This is just a random Idea I had, so don't expect anything amazing or anything...

OK so I think a kind of competitive / ranked mode of super fighters would be pretty awesome. I for one love getting ranks ETC in competitive games. Players would get bored A LOT less easily and it would encourage lots of new players to come in. Also who doesn't love bragging about their super high rank??!? This would work perfectly once the player accounts are set up. The only problem with this is that hosts could potentially be able to abuse the ranked game mode. So SFD would have to have official servers to support ranked play.

Idk if it will work or not so tell me what you guys think :)
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Post by Hjarpe » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:11 am

This has been talked about before, and Gurt and I don't think a competetive mode would work very well. For it to be fair, we'd have to strip out most if not all random elements, which imo is an essential part of the game. Besides, having permanent consequences for winning/losing a game would give people more reasons to behave... unpleasantly to each other. Some people take the game too seriously as it is.
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Post by Lunatic » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:10 pm

I think SFD as a whole actually does have room for competitive. Yes, it's a pretty random game, but I've had a jumbled bunch of thoughts that would help round everything out and give it room for the competitive life and scene it deserves.

But before I say anything? Having an official ranking for SFD is indeed cancerous and leads to a toxic community (LoL, DotA, CoD, Smash, etc etc etc). I think it does help to bring together a larger following towards a competitive game but it definitely shapes people to be worse towards each other.

SFD's competitive game should definitely be a team game. Free for all games obviously wouldn't work, and 1v1 scenarios, despite being the norm in the fighting game scene and often competitive in general, don't fit what SFD is as a whole. 2v2 or 3v3 would work best for the game that SFD is; I don't think 4v4 games would work well, however I'd have to see it more in practice. In general it's too much of a clusterfuck and I'm inclined to vote for 2v2 and 3v3.

Some simple tweaks to the randomness would be good to cut out the super jank and leave what SFD does best when it comes to randomness. I previously stated the random chance to be hit on dodges should be removed, and while I don't think that's quite right since it doesn't fit the theme of SFD too much, I realized that there's a better way to put it: Not all weapons should have a random chance to hit during a dodge. Automatic weapons? Yes, they should have a chance to hit during a dodge. Magnum? Sniper rifle? Probably not. Weapons that have a fire rate fast enough to be dodged multiple times in one roll should have the chance to hit during the dodge, while weapons that are just too slow to go off more than once in a dodge should not. This keeps the random quarter health hits from landing during a dodge while players should be more expectant of taking some chip during their dodges against pistols, uzis, etc. I don't think this is too crazy though it might need some work.

Otherwise, I think a good fix would simply be to make sure that a dodge always avoids the first bullet. Nothing's worse than masterfully dodging someone's magnum shot only to be killed anyways. Sure, taking fire from two sources means that if you dodge and the magnum shoots after you dodge a bullet, you might eat hell, but it helps to mitigate the "wtf I dodged that 30 damage shot" feeling. Shotguns would still be crazy good since they shoot 6 pellets!

The other change to randomness that I believe would be necessary for a competitive mode, would be to limit power weapon spawns at the start of the match. I'm all for random power weapon spawns, but they really shouldn't be showing up at match start. Maybe 15-30 seconds into a match is when power weapons can start spawning randomly. Getting a bazooka the second a match starts feels unfair. Watching someone else get a zook at match start is pretty spooky, too.

Other than that, we just need grabs, server side gameplay, and maybe dash attacks. Two of these things are already confirmed being added, being grabs and server side. I think the groundwork for competitive is present and the desire for it is too, we just need some more players and some more organization. I tried setting up a list of competitive rules while working towards setting up competitive maps, we just need some more knowledgeable players to jump in and add to the discussion. This isn't something easily done by one or two people, and while I'm not afraid being the one guy, I'd rather have a group of people that understand the game and it's mechanics deeply be the ones to help shape the meta rather than just me. I'd be happy to go into the details when it comes to shaping a competitive map list, though I'll need to work on it more. I don't think I did it perfectly the first time through.

We can set up tournaments and run a more competitive game, we just need a standard and some commitment from the community. This isn't something the devs need to put a ton of work and time into, it's something we as players need to do. I've already put in a lot of time, I've researched and put time into the game to understand it, it's mechanics, what everything does, how things interact with each other, etc etc. Not everything needs to be perfectly "fair" like most competitive games. The randomness lends to what SFD is. We just need to work out what maps are bad for competitive mode (I think hazardous is a prime example) and go from there.

EDIT: I think work would need to be done on duds, and mines could probably handle a damage nerf. Grenades are fine as-is damage-wise, but overall I think duds should be removed, at least for a competitive setting.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by CadBane » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:23 pm

Hjarpe wrote:This has been talked about before, and Gurt and I don't think a competetive mode would work very well. For it to be fair, we'd have to strip out most if not all random elements, which imo is an essential part of the game. Besides, having permanent consequences for winning/losing a game would give people more reasons to behave... unpleasantly to each other. Some people take the game too seriously as it is.
Yeah know that I think about it a competitive mode for SFD wouldn't make much sense. SFD does rely on many random elements and overall isn't a fair game. Plus I have played games like LoL and CS:GO and your right about the community being pretty toxic.
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Post by SEM » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:54 pm

I don't think you can deny SFD has a certain level of competitiveness to it. Yes it is not as competitive as chess or football or StreetFighter, but it still has to a degree some competitive.
I agree with Lunatic on that the competitive part of SFD should be handled by the community instead of changing the type of game SFD is just to make it more competitive.
Some think that people who like competitive always play the game or are very good at it, but that is not always true. I do not play SFD all the time, but when I play it I like to do my best. I may not spend a lot of time but the time I spend on something I like to make sure I'm doing the best with that time.
Lunatic wrote: previously stated the random chance to be hit on dodges should be removed, and while I don't think that's quite right since it doesn't fit the theme of SFD too much, I realized that there's a better way to put it: Not all weapons should have a random chance to hit during a dodge. Automatic weapons? Yes, they should have a chance to hit during a dodge. Magnum? Sniper rifle? Probably not. Weapons that have a fire rate fast enough to be dodged multiple times in one roll should have the chance to hit during the dodge, while weapons that are just too slow to go off more than once in a dodge should not. This keeps the random quarter health hits from landing during a dodge while players should be more expectant of taking some chip during their dodges against pistols, uzis, etc. I don't think this is too crazy though it might need some work.

Otherwise, I think a good fix would simply be to make sure that a dodge always avoids the first bullet. Nothing's worse than masterfully dodging someone's magnum shot only to be killed anyways. Sure, taking fire from two sources means that if you dodge and the magnum shoots after you dodge a bullet, you might eat hell, but it helps to mitigate the "wtf I dodged that 30 damage shot" feeling. Shotguns would still be crazy good since they shoot 6 pellets!
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But then you would be able to repeatedly dodge multiple Magnum shots. I understand it is not cool to take damage after a properly timed dodge, but it is also not cool to dodge all the time when I have a Magnum or Sniper.
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Post by Splinter » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:01 am

The main random aspect of SFD is how weapons spawn. Maybe someone or some volunteers could try to create a more competitive map with a different weapon spawn system. For example, starting weapons, fixed player spawns and weapons that always spawn at a specific place and time, so players have to fight for that spot if they want the weapon. I wouldn't want them to change too much of the funny luck aspect of SFD though.
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Post by Lunatic » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:31 am

Properly dodging an attack that deals 1/4th or 1/3rd of your healthbar seems fair to me. If I input a dodge and take the hit anyways I'm gonna be mad, that's a shitton of health that I shouldn't have lost since I dodged. Hit during roll is fine to a degree but there should be some checks in place to stop big damage from landing when I'm doing things right.

The problem with creating a competitive map with things like fixed spawns and dedicated weapon spawns, is that we'd need a more concrete tier list in place, as well as throwing out a mechanic at SFD's core: The randomness mechanic. I'm not the biggest fan of it at all times, but it's very much what SFD is through and through. Cutting out a large portion of SFD's randomness doesn't sound right when it comes to playing the game competitively. There are definitely portions of randomness that could use the boot, but probably not the way weapons spawn. Unless we're saying power weapons, haha, those should be controlled so they don't spawn at match start.

Furthermore, I think we should just work on playing on the official maps.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by SEM » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:40 am

Lunatic wrote:Properly dodging an attack that deals 1/4th or 1/3rd of your healthbar seems fair to me. If I input a dodge and take the hit anyways I'm gonna be mad, that's a shitton of health that I shouldn't have lost since I dodged. Hit during roll is fine to a degree but there should be some checks in place to stop big damage from landing when I'm doing things right.
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But how long is the cool down between dodges? Not enough to prevent you from constantly dodging those magnum shots.
The thing is, if I have a magnum and you don't have any cover, I should have an advantage, especially that magnums and snipers,etc are rare.
Since the player with the gun should have an advantage over a player with no cover, the dodge is there only as a last resort, so you have some sort of chance against someone with a Single-Shot weapon, not as a reliable strategy to counter a powerful, rare gun.
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Post by Lunatic » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:51 am

If you're using a powerful gun, it should be more easily dodged since it has capacity to kill in very few hits. The shooter, therefore, needs to work on punishing bad rolls by timing their shots better to hit their opponent as they come out of roll. If they have a melee weapon, further prudence is required from the shooter to make sure they hit the player and not their weapon. This should be the nature of such destructive weapons, rewarding the cautious players that know when and where to shoot.

Dodge being a "last resort" I disagree with. It's nearly your only way to combat shotguns and high damage rifles in CQC, aka where most of the fighting happens. Maybe modify the roll so that it has perfect dodges vs dives which don't, since dives cover more distance and last longer.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by SEM » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:09 pm

Lunatic wrote:If you're using a powerful gun, it should be more easily dodged since it has capacity to kill in very few hits. The shooter, therefore, needs to work on punishing bad rolls by timing their shots better to hit their opponent as they come out of roll. If they have a melee weapon, further prudence is required from the shooter to make sure they hit the player and not their weapon. This should be the nature of such destructive weapons, rewarding the cautious players that know when and where to shoot.

Dodge being a "last resort" I disagree with. It's nearly your only way to combat shotguns and high damage rifles in CQC, aka where most of the fighting happens. Maybe modify the roll so that it has perfect dodges vs dives which don't, since dives cover more distance and last longer.
That is why powerful guns are a rare drop.
If someone were to attack you in real life with a Magnum, would you really use dodging as your first defence? wouldn't it be smarter to try and avoid that combat by finding cover and hiding? In either case you are in a much worse position than the person with a gun.


Remember that there is only a 10% chance to get hit, which is more than enough to let you dodge the first bullet most of the time, and then get to cover. And in case you get hit by the first bullet, that raises the question "Why haven't you gotten into cover yet?"'

The magnum and Sniper are 2 guns out of many more, and both of them are quite rare drops.
90% chance not to get hit from 2 of the rarest power guns, which don't have that much ammo, is more than enough.
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Post by Wozenbelt » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:55 pm

I'm against this over-usage of the real life analogy. In real life, most guns kill you immediately. Furthermore, in real life, the objective is to survive, not necessarily kill the other guy. Thirdly, yes, your first instinct would be to dodge out of the way of the predicted shot so that you don't get hit. That would be part of getting into cover.
If you dodge and there's a random chance for the dodge to just fail, then that takes control away from the player and they're not as able to blame themselves for their loss of health. I think that cover-taking being the only true way to avoid gunfire slows the game down, and even then, there are a lot of situations in which cover-taking isn't an option. It's not devastating, but it's not ideal in my opinion.
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Post by Lunatic » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:27 am

Yeah, this is Superfighters, the game where people are still dead-on sprinting after being sniped twice, the game where they keep on running around after being literally blown up. Realism isn't at the top of the charts here.

Magnum has a spawn chance of 12. For perspective, tommy has 8, silenced pistol has 15, pump-action also has 12. It's still quite high, especially for a weapon with the potential to deal a maximum of 420 damage, and without crits, they're still dealing 300 damage. You can kill at least 3 people with one gun, where most guns kill 2. I don't think it's unfair to give better dodges against this weapon, since being hit at all during a dodge is dum. As stated by Wozenbelt, it detracts from the skill of the player since they did everything right yet still ended up taking damage.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by Zyfex » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:36 am

i think youre lookin towards the wrong game for a competitive scene
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Post by Rick Sanchez » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:26 pm

 ! Message from: KliPeH
Merged a new take on an idea with an existing thread.
Alright here my idea, Right listen up. I think it would be a really great idea to have a Competitive Game mode. And by that i mean As far as the game can possibly get with all the rng and Erhm lets just say not so polished physics/mechanics, Like a normal 8v8 mode, Just you know, with other Skilled players where you can REALLY tryhard, Because we all tryhard. This is a game where the worst players can beat the bestest of players, through dumb luck which happens nearly every other game. And most of us know that we can get really really competitive, because there is that incentive TO be competitive, this is a game where Skilled players will always win more consistantly even through dumb luck etc. I would just like any seperate game mode with a different map pool consisting of The Medium sized maps like Canals, Alley, Police station, rooftops etc. for people who are skilled and ARE interested in spicing up their game. I have no idea how it would work, maybe there would need to be some sort of ELO system, i dont know just throwing this out there, this is a thing i would actually love to see.

EDIT: yes i should check before hand for existing posts.
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Post by Evilsack » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:41 pm

Rick Sanchez wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:26 pm
 ! Message from: KliPeH
Merged a new take on an idea with an existing thread.
Alright here my idea, Right listen up. I think it would be a really great idea to have a Competitive Game mode. And by that i mean As far as the game can possibly get with all the rng and Erhm lets just say not so polished physics/mechanics, Like a normal 8v8 mode, Just you know, with other Skilled players where you can REALLY tryhard, Because we all tryhard. This is a game where the worst players can beat the bestest of players, through dumb luck which happens nearly every other game. And most of us know that we can get really really competitive, because there is that incentive TO be competitive, this is a game where Skilled players will always win more consistantly even through dumb luck etc. I would just like any seperate game mode with a different map pool consisting of The Medium sized maps like Canals, Alley, Police station, rooftops etc. for people who are skilled and ARE interested in spicing up their game. I have no idea how it would work, maybe there would need to be some sort of ELO system, i dont know just throwing this out there, this is a thing i would actually love to see.

EDIT: yes i should check before hand for existing posts.
Dumb luck is SuperFighters. Some may complain but it won't be the same without that element of bullshit. It also tips in your favour. Let's not make the same mistake we made with grabs. Let's think this thruuuuuuuuuuuu
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Post by mgtr14 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:18 pm

I think that a simple competitive mode could be fun, this game is mostly for casual gamers I guess? It's just really hard to know what the developers really want at this point, but it just looks like it's to be a game to only have fun with. Altough, usually, the most "skillfull" players win. So we players have somehow found alot of skill in this chaotic game, that's just slightly impressive honestly. Late uppercuts, no cooldown kicks, combos of atleast 3 hits, up to 4-5, double hit, or kicking and then shooting, etc. Honestly, most tricks are in melee, which is why I think melee is the most fun and has the most depth IMO.
Anyways, it's the devs' game, but I still see alot of potential for a competitive mode. You would definetely have more players if you could appeal to more players with a simple gamemode. I wouldn't think that it's so hard to make a competitive mode, it would really just be SFD with minimal luck.
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Ok.

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Post by Rick Sanchez » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:08 pm

Evilsack wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:41 pm
Rick Sanchez wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:26 pm
 ! Message from: KliPeH
Merged a new take on an idea with an existing thread.
Alright here my idea, Right listen up. I think it would be a really great idea to have a Competitive Game mode. And by that i mean As far as the game can possibly get with all the rng and Erhm lets just say not so polished physics/mechanics, Like a normal 8v8 mode, Just you know, with other Skilled players where you can REALLY tryhard, Because we all tryhard. This is a game where the worst players can beat the bestest of players, through dumb luck which happens nearly every other game. And most of us know that we can get really really competitive, because there is that incentive TO be competitive, this is a game where Skilled players will always win more consistantly even through dumb luck etc. I would just like any seperate game mode with a different map pool consisting of The Medium sized maps like Canals, Alley, Police station, rooftops etc. for people who are skilled and ARE interested in spicing up their game. I have no idea how it would work, maybe there would need to be some sort of ELO system, i dont know just throwing this out there, this is a thing i would actually love to see.

EDIT: yes i should check before hand for existing posts.
Dumb luck is SuperFighters. Some may complain but it won't be the same without that element of bullshit. It also tips in your favour. Let's not make the same mistake we made with grabs. Let's think this thruuuuuuuuuuuu
Like i said, it would be a sepereate mode, so you could keep playing with noobs, but i for one am not fond of it.
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