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Make blocks instantaneous again.

Give us your input on how we may improve the game in future versions.
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mgtr14
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Make blocks instantaneous again.

Post by mgtr14 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:00 pm

In the version right before release (Beta 1.0.2c), blocks were instantaneous. No delay, you block on demand.
For whatever reason however, it now takes a frame before you block, making it just a little slower. This is actually a big delay, since other melee moves take just a little longer (~4frames?), and it makes thrown weapons harder to block in time. (This is also on top the apparent delay nowadays)

Gifs:
https://imgur.com/a/76zBezr The release version is the one gif with the skin, there's also a slowed down gif to show the frame. The newbie skin is the beta, and I also made a gif of the smash for a little comparison.

A lot can happen in a second, being able to react quickly enough is crucial. Why was this change even made in the first place?
Last edited by mgtr14 on Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Lunatic » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:01 pm

I refuse to believe that blocks aren't instant. There's always been a small animation for blocking, between when you press the button and when your weapon is turned sideways in front of you, but you're still blocking between the button press and the weapon lift. If you have actual video evidence of blocking not being instant any more I'll side with you, but there's no way in hell they gave blocking a delay. I just can't believe that.
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Post by RickAvory » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:31 pm

Lunatic wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:01 pm
I refuse to believe that blocks aren't instant. There's always been a small animation for blocking, between when you press the button and when your weapon is turned sideways in front of you, but you're still blocking between the button press and the weapon lift. If you have actual video evidence of blocking not being instant any more I'll side with you, but there's no way in hell they gave blocking a delay. I just can't believe that.
It is funny, Lunatic, I don’t think they intentionally made blocking delayed. When @mgtr14 had brought this to my attention on discord, I had a similar reaction as you and simply dismissed it as serverside lag. However, he had brought to my attention that his ping had only been 15. I have been hosting a lot due to a lack of low ping servers after the release of the game, and saw no issues. However, when joining a server that was 30 ping I had a very peculiar experience, in which not only blocking had a weird delay, but even kicking and rolling. I think the issue has to do with the the way the servers are being run now.
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Post by Del Poncho » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:41 pm

I guess the only way to actually prove if there's any delay with 100% certainty, is to host a local server, so that both players have 1 ping.
This would prove that there isn't any "delay mechanic" in the game. Wouldn't prove if the lag is a factor in this.

This said, there seems to have been quite a bit of hysteria around for what matters input lag lately. I haven't really noticed any particualr change, but I'm not really used to play with a ping higher than 1. But I honestly think it's just that, a feeling that some players have, and nothing more. One player feels like he's being delayed, he tells others, they start feeling it too, etc. Might be wrong tho.
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Post by mgtr14 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:57 pm

Lunatic wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:01 pm
I refuse to believe that blocks aren't instant. There's always been a small animation for blocking, between when you press the button and when your weapon is turned sideways in front of you, but you're still blocking between the button press and the weapon lift. If you have actual video evidence of blocking not being instant any more I'll side with you, but there's no way in hell they gave blocking a delay. I just can't believe that.
Here, in my own game. The delay was way shorter than I remember, so I'll check this in other servers. The newbie skin is 1.0.2c.

https://imgur.com/a/76zBezr

I also put a slowed down version at the top, I think the delay is 1 frame.
I also made a gif of an air attack for a little comparison. Even a delay of a frame is long for melee.
Del Poncho wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:41 pm
I guess the only way to actually prove if there's any delay with 100% certainty, is to host a local server, so that both players have 1 ping.
This would prove that there isn't any "delay mechanic" in the game. Wouldn't prove if the lag is a factor in this.
Done.
Del Poncho wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:41 pm
This said, there seems to have been quite a bit of hysteria around for what matters input lag lately. I haven't really noticed any particualr change, but I'm not really used to play with a ping higher than 1. But I honestly think it's just that, a feeling that some players have, and nothing more. One player feels like he's being delayed, he tells others, they start feeling it too, etc. Might be wrong tho.
You haven't played with >1 ping, but yet you claim that it's just a "feeling of delay" that players have?
A lot of people have delay nowadays, especially in melee. Apart from melee being stiff due to very weird changes, it's very hard to block in time. Especially during entire 3-punch combos, where my fighter will just take it while I mash the block button.
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Post by Del Poncho » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:22 pm

mgtr14 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:57 pm
You haven't played with >1 ping, but yet you claim that it's just a "feeling of delay" that players have?
I've played in other servers other than mine, yes. What I said is that I haven't done so as much as other players, so I have less experience than others in this matter, therefore I won't make assumptions based on personal experience.
My assumption on the whole "it's just a feeling" matter, is that I've heard of this only from a limited group of players, that makes me think that it either affects only certain players, or that it's just a feeling.

For what matters the gifs, there doesn't seem to be any delay. And even if there was, it might only be related to the animation. For what we know the block could start some ms before the animation. We should try with 2 local players, possibly on the same keyboard. But again, that wouldn't exclude a delay related to the ping.
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Post by mgtr14 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:48 pm

Del Poncho wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:22 pm
mgtr14 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:57 pm
You haven't played with >1 ping, but yet you claim that it's just a "feeling of delay" that players have?
I've played in other servers other than mine, yes. What I said is that I haven't done so as much as other players, so I have less experience than others in this matter, therefore I won't make assumptions based on personal experience.
My assumption on the whole "it's just a feeling" matter, is that I've heard of this only from a limited group of players, that makes me think that it either affects only certain players, or that it's just a feeling.

For what matters the gifs, there doesn't seem to be any delay. And even if there was, it might only be related to the animation. For what we know the block could start some ms before the animation. We should try with 2 local players, possibly on the same keyboard. But again, that wouldn't exclude a delay related to the ping.
Release version takes a frame before actually blocking, look at the slowed down version. This isn't about ping, it's about the block itself. I was hosting. And how would local play suffer ping?
I do agree that this needs more testing, maybe it still blocks during that one frame of delay?
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Post by Del Poncho » Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:08 pm

mgtr14 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:48 pm
And how would local play suffer ping?
I do agree that this needs more testing, maybe it still blocks during that one frame of delay?
Local would only disprove a game mechanic-related delay, it wouldn't help in finding out if the delay is related to the ping.
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Post by mgtr14 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:17 pm

Del Poncho wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:08 pm
mgtr14 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:48 pm
And how would local play suffer ping?
I do agree that this needs more testing, maybe it still blocks during that one frame of delay?
Local would only disprove a game mechanic-related delay, it wouldn't help in finding out if the delay is related to the ping.
What do you even mean? "Game mechanic-related delay"? The block is delayed by a frame now. And it has nothing to do with ping either, this delay is part of blocking now.
Last edited by mgtr14 on Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TheBlackshot » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:39 pm

mgtr14 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:17 pm
Del Poncho wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:08 pm
mgtr14 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:48 pm
And how would local play suffer ping?
I do agree that this needs more testing, maybe it still blocks during that one frame of delay?
Local would only disprove a game mechanic-related delay, it wouldn't help in finding out if the delay is related to the ping.
What do you even mean? "Game mechanic-related delay"? The block *has* is delayed by a frame now. And it has nothing to do with ping either, this delay is part of blocking now.
If an issue like this is no longer an issue in local (as opposed to online), then it's netcode related, instead of gameplay. That's what he said
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Post by Del Poncho » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:55 am

TheBlackshot wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:39 pm
If an issue like this is no longer an issue in local (as opposed to online), then it's netcode related, instead of gameplay. That's what he said
That's pretty much it, but said in an understandable way.
mgtr14 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:17 pm
And it has nothing to do with ping either, this delay is part of blocking now.
I mean, from those gifs we could notice that the delay was just of a few ms, definitely not enough to be felt.
Either there is a desyncronization between the block's animation and effect -wich seems odd- or it's something ping related (or it's just not a real thing, as I actually think for now).
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Post by mgtr14 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:32 am

Del Poncho wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:55 am
TheBlackshot wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:39 pm
If an issue like this is no longer an issue in local (as opposed to online), then it's netcode related, instead of gameplay. That's what he said
That's pretty much it, but said in an understandable way.
mgtr14 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:17 pm
And it has nothing to do with ping either, this delay is part of blocking now.
I mean, from those gifs we could notice that the delay was just of a few ms, definitely not enough to be felt.
Either there is a desyncronization between the block's animation and effect -wich seems odd- or it's something ping related (or it's just not a real thing, as I actually think for now).
https://imgur.com/a/76zBezr Check the last gif I added, that one is done in Blurry's server. 15 ping, 60 FPS.
I don't think there is a desync between animation and effect, nor is it ping related it seems. The little delay can be crucial since that time (In comparison to other moves) is pretty long.
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Post by Del Poncho » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:07 pm

mgtr14 wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:32 am
https://imgur.com/a/76zBezr Check the last gif I added, that one is done in Blurry's server. 15 ping, 60 FPS.
I don't think there is a desync between animation and effect, nor is it ping related it seems. The little delay can be crucial since that time (In comparison to other moves) is pretty long.
That seems like a perfectly normal block...consider that there's a frame in wich the hands are not in front of you, wich begins a few ms (consider that a standard "human reaction" in this kind of game is ~300ms, if I remember correctly).
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Post by Pricey » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:15 pm

As mgtr originally said, there actually is an added delay to the block. I recorded two separate gifs to showcase the two blocks, in the previous Beta v1.0.2 version, the player would go from standstill to blocking in a single frame, but in the new Steam version, there is added frame of animation between the transition.

Beta v1.0.2

Image

Current Version

Image
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Post by Del Poncho » Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:04 pm

Pricey wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:15 pm
As mgtr originally said, there actually is an added delay to the block. I recorded two separate gifs to showcase the two blocks, in the previous Beta v1.0.2 version, the player would go from standstill to blocking in a single frame, but in the new Steam version, there is added frame of animation between the transition.

Beta v1.0.2

Image

Current Version

Image
Nice find.
Altough I can confirm that, at least in local play, that extra frame has block properties.
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Post by Gurt » Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:04 am

There is a cooldown on the block so you can't always block.

Everything is processed on the server side (except movement if you have less-than-high ping). This means that your melee actions, blocks, kicks, attacks are all processed on the server and it has been like this since the Pre-Alpha. You won't kick/attack/block until the that state reaches the server. The drawback is the latency of course and we can only hide it (we can never remove it). We hide this latency in the beginning of animations for any attack or block. The bare-fists block animation lacked this animation in earlier versions but it has always been there!! The animation is now added to the bare-firsts animation and this is what you see.

The block is instant as soon as the server receives the block state. The "wind-up" animation do have blocking properties... depending on timing (but now we're getting into very low-level details in how the latency is hidden behind animations and such so I won't go into details).

To clarify the original questions: We have not (deliberately) made any changes to blocking except the animation for bare-firsts.
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