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Recovery Roll System and Quick Roll Nerf should be abolished

Give us your input on how we may improve the game in future versions.
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Evilsack
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Re: Recovery Roll System and Quick Roll Nerf should be abolished

Post by Evilsack » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:00 pm

Motto73 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:13 pm
RickAvory wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:05 pm
--
I agree with Wraith to a certain extent. I wish I had more control over my charecter. Instead of weakening offensive melee why don’t we strengthen defensive melee. Add a dodge or something.
I have to agree to that strengthening defensive melee is times better than weakening offensive melee. I still think that anything that gives you the possibility to avoid getting stunlocked by a melle pro who'd just kill you with the one combo is a plus. A big part of the community is heavily focused on only melee. The game is all about chaos, and using a reoccuring ruleset of certain moves every time does not contribute to the idea of the game at all. The game is much more than perfectly timed melee attacks on players that can't use melee at all. Every time I see a new player getting absolutely wasted by an experienced melee fighter without dealing any damage or chance to get away and then quitting the game I just wanna quit too. People are complaining far too much about melee in the forums. After all it is up to Gurt and Hjärpe what the game will be like, getting aggressive here doesn't do shit.
It's about expressing ones opinion, no? People complain because they care, right now melee is highly risky with little reward (Depending on who you are) compared to before - which is most likely why people are annoyed. It's a good change for the long run though.
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Post by Pricey » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:25 pm

Melee as it is is a lot slower and a lot clunkier than it was before the update. Beforehand I used to find myself throwing myself into the barrels of enemies in order to deal a quick, high-damage melee combo. Nowadays that sort of high-risk, high-reward manoeuvre wouldn't be worth it - melee just doesn't deal enough damage for it to be advantageous. While I agree that most of the combos before they were patch were abusive, inescapable and mostly unbalanced, their removal has completely changed the speed (and skill ceiling) of melee. Not being able to escape from a punch makes melee extremely sluggish too.

all in all, we were so good we needed nerfing
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Post by Merchant » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:45 pm

Me, as a long time player of this game, I agree, i was really into using that punch+roll+midairpunch combo, which was really greedy of me, but I personally get the point why it got removed, even though i liked it very much. For the devs: if you still dont consider bringing back the old recovery roll, which i understand, keep reading.
Now, the thing with recovery roll is: The name "Recovery Roll" speaks for itself, i don't see the reason for nerfing it (Talking about Recovery roll here, that is only the roll you can active while you're laying on the ground and you can't do it in every situation. (originally said by Gurt).
The abilty to roll away after being slammed into the ground by a grabber or after getting stunned from top - i don't see why you guys removed it, it was the purpose of the roll - recovering.
Also the thing with "forced to punch, after you've pressed the button" - I see where that comment came from, it was said by me, and no, i didn't mean rolling away after you've landed a punch, some players might think that, what i meant was rolling (not talking about recovery roll here) mid-punching animation - you're not able to do that in this version, once you punch, you're committed to waiting for the punching animation to end, now comes the part where i suggest the devs why and how should devs change that. (bear in mind that's all my opinion, do not take it as a "must to do" thing, im not telling the devs what to do and what not, this is my proposal)


So why should the devs bring back the "rolling mid punching animation" move?
Let me answer the question "why?"

·By doing that players could have slightly more time space to work with while in a melee fight, they would be able to perform a roll+jump - mid punching animation,
a move that let's them feel more free when getting into a melee fight, a move that doesn't give you the feeling: "once you've pressed punch, you're forced to punch", this could also help players who're suffering from a disease called "missclickeases" (a fancy word i made for describing constant missclicking) It would make players feel more free.

Doesn't that bring back the abusable move from the old superfighters version, the unblockable move?

·The thing with that is, im not sure. But i've thought about a solution that should fix the problem, even if it takes place. Since you're currently not able to roll mid punching animation, developers should make it so: Yes, you're able to roll, but even if you do that, you pay the penalty of getting a short cooldown for your next melee attack - to prevent the old abusable move from happening, the cooldown doesn't have to be long at all.

Woah woah woah, cool down cowboy! Another cooldown? Are you out of your mind?
The solution
·Even if my suggestion gets added, and the abusable move can still be done then my solution might work, yes it does add another cooldown, but that's the price you have to pay for rolling away mid punching animation, its the kind of attitude you may be familiar with while playing a game you like: "Oh that's cool, i can do that move, but dang it costs something" - atleast you're giving the player more time space to work with, it wouldn't be a big change, because it balances itself, it's just another move players could count on.

But what if i do an accidental roll while punching animation is going on, then i have to wait for the "little" cooldown to end. THEN I HAVE TO PAY THE PRICE.

·I've thought about how to fix this problem, i propose making the rolling animation fit only in 3/4 or 1/2 time space of the puncing animation, if you're over that time space, then you are not able to perform a roll.


The second last point (the solution) i brought was only meant for when the abusable move returns after adding a mid-punching-animation roll.

If you're not Gurt or Hjärpe i suggest you to focus more on the main text, once the devs really consider my suggestion, feel free to focus on the solution.
Took me quite some time to write, so don't mind the typos.

Sincerely, Merchant.
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Post by 2_Wraith » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:14 pm

All i want is normal melee where I get more control of my player I didn't know a roll impacted the game so much till it was removed. Most SFD players would agree with me I just want my quick rolls back. Of course Gurt has more things to deal with like campaign etc but I don't get how removing a Nerf is time consuming. Just because you Nerf something doesn't mean its the best solution.Just listen to public and give us what we want or find reasonable solution
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Post by MScull » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:37 pm

In general, I do agree with most people on melee feeling clunky.
But on the other end, I fully understand that this forced roll-cooldown when canceling an attack would prevent those unfair stun-locks.

I feel like there is a much better solution to this problem however.

At the moment, you can actually cancel your punch already with a roll. However like Gurt has said, the cooldown will be applied to your roll, and you cannot cancel the roll with something else. This will force the entire attack-cooldown on a player which is a BIG nerf to melee.
Instead, I suggest reverting to being able to cancel the roll immediately with a jump, however apply the cooldown on preventing your next attack.

This would prevent your unfair stun-lock combo but also enable a quick escape out of a punch, which will lower the punishment for poking in a melee fight and will make melee feel more fluid.

Moreover, I also suggest reverting the ability to cancel a kick at any moment within the kick with a roll, but now also apply the kick cooldown on preventing your next attack.

Again, this would prevent any 'double attacks' (kick, roll, jump, punch) but make melee more dynamic and lower the punishment for kicking in a fight.
On a side-note, this would also bring back those object-jumps/boosts (kick, roll, jump on a crate/barrel). Which I was pretty fond of myself.
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Post by [HERC]riotz » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:09 am

RickAvory wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:05 pm
Motto73 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:56 pm
2_Wraith wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:37 pm
(Translated)
WHYy dDiD YoOU aDdD RrECcovVErRy RoOlL i caNnt kilLlL NOoBBs InN oNNE CombO ANYmoRE itTs ReALLY aaNnOoyING do yOoU ExPECt me tTO uUsE faiR PLlaY BeCAUSe yoURe ALl rEtarDs If YoU ThiNK so
I agree with Wraith to a certain extent. I wish I had more control over my charecter. Instead of weakening offensive melee why don’t we strengthen defensive melee. Add a dodge or something.
Yeah a defensive melee would be better since the bot have a bullshit melee capability
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Post by 2_Wraith » Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:50 pm

First things first, it's pretty stupid how you all consider these combos as "meta", a strategy or a move is only termed as meta when it is accessible to a specific set of character or equipment, it's a moba term, when you call a hero or it's move a meta, it makes sense because not everyone has or goes for the same hero. but in sfd, combos aren't meta because every goddamn player gets to execute them. it isn't some move restricted to only a few players, so stop calling them a meta.

second, Y'all have a disgusting perspective on melee, basing melee off rock paper scissors might be the most retarded things I've heard/seen. really? you want melee to be based off a game where you literally throw in a move and hope luck is in your side? that's your vision on melee? well you might as well ask the devs to change the melee action animations to the super fighters doing rock/paper/scissors with their hands, that would make more sense smh.

I really don't see why these combos can't be in place when there are grabs in game. these combos doing a mass damage of 35 is considered overpowered but getting grabbed and thrown off the map is normal? I know getting thrown out of the map by a grab is situational but so are occasions where there is a crate or barrel near by aligned properly for you to pull a combo off.

Chainsaws being the "bazooka" of melee? Sure it should be overpowered if it is the bazooka of melee, except Melee doesn't need a fucking bazooka. melee isn't like guns. going against a person with a bazooka when you have an AR isn't the same as going against a person with a chainsaw when you have another melee weapon, when it's bazooka v AR, there are lots of ways to approach the opponent, you can disarm him by throwing makeshifts, you can take cover and take peek shots or bait him to waste some ammo but when it's chainsaw vs another melee weapon, there are no ways of approaching him because the moment you go near him to melee, it's gonna stun lock you to death.

and last but not the least, the most stupid argument y'all put me through with. all of this were done to ENCOURAGE OFFENSIVE STYLE

> making melee a literal 50/50 slapping contest
> removing all kinds of strategies that spiced up melee
> taking away all sorts of evading moves and making melee extremely risky now that melee is all about pressing a button and hope you did the right move

if you ask me, that kind of encouraged me to never melee again. a huge round of applause for the devs' brilliant ways to encourage offensive style
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Post by Del Poncho » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:55 pm

RickAvory wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:05 pm
I agree with Wraith to a certain extent. I wish I had more control over my charecter. Instead of weakening offensive melee why don’t we strengthen defensive melee. Add a dodge or something.
It doesn't matter how many ways to prevent damage you add, the roll-attacks before the nerf would simply not give you any time to react - both because you were continuously stunlocked without any real chance of getting out of it, and because those attacks were literally out of the reach of a human reaction.

Before the nerf, unless you were in an empty map, melle was all about being the first of the two to stunlock the enemy and just go on and on by throwing him on the ground - without him being able to do anything - untill he was dead.

Now, I many not be exactly the most melee-centered person in here, but I'm happy with it right now.
My two only small complaints are how easy it is to land grabs, and exploit a low ceiling for free jump attacks, but it's something I can live with.
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Post by RickAvory » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:05 pm

Del Poncho wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:55 pm
RickAvory wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:05 pm
I agree with Wraith to a certain extent. I wish I had more control over my charecter. Instead of weakening offensive melee why don’t we strengthen defensive melee. Add a dodge or something.
It doesn't matter how many ways to prevent damage you add, the roll-attacks before the nerf would simply not give you any time to react - both because you were continuously stunlocked without any real chance of getting out of it, and because those attacks were literally out of the reach of a human reaction.

Before the nerf, unless you were in an empty map, melle was all about being the first of the two to stunlock the enemy and just go on and on by throwing him on the ground - without him being able to do anything - untill he was dead.

Now, I many not be exactly the most melee-centered person in here, but I'm happy with it right now.
My two only small complaints are how easy it is to land grabs, and exploit a low ceiling for free jump attacks, but it's something I can live with.
I’m not sure what game you played, but that was not how melee worked. If you are in a stun lock you were never doomed to lose all your health, you had means of blocking, rolling, dodging, and reciprocating the offensive. Listen, I’m no longer begging this feature to be brought back (as i think it’s just going to be something I have to get used to) but melee was a lot more complicated than “whoever can secure the first stun lock”. I personally thought that this feature resulted in some seriously intense melee fights against 2 proficient Individuals. If you want to argue that it was overpowering to the less proficient players, they always had the option to just run away.
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Post by Del Poncho » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:45 pm

RickAvory wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:05 pm
I’m not sure what game you played, but that was not how melee worked. If you are in a stun lock you were never doomed to lose all your health, you had means of blocking, rolling, dodging, and reciprocating the offensive.
The term stunlock literally means to stun the enemy while he's already stunned, thus not giving him any way to defend himself - and that's what happened against players that knew what to do.
Of course it wasn't an everyday thing to just "oneshot" someone, you had to be really good at it, and the enviroment had to be in your favor, but it was quite common to see someone lose half of his hp just because he got punched once (hell, a lot of these combos worked even if you got blocked).
RickAvory wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:05 pm
If you want to argue that it was overpowering to the less proficient players, they always had the option to just run away.
That's not my point, but if we want to bring it up, forcing new players to just run away is possibly the worst solution to the problem.
First, you'll never learn melee if any interaction with it is "run or get stunlocked to death".
Second, it's quite easy to catch someone running, especially in the case of a new player against a seasoned one.
Off Topic
Also I just noticed this post has 2 pages. I replied to this old comment of yours thinking it was the lat one. lol.
2_Wraith wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:50 pm
[everything Wraith wrote in his last post, I'll just write this to save some space]
I mean, the word meta literally means "Most Effective Tactic Available", wich fits what stunlocks were before the changes. Also it's a term that's born with mmos, if I'm not mistaken, but whatever.

Also, I don't really agree with the rest of things you wrote...Melee is less of a 50/50 than it was before imo, now everybody has a chance to turn the tables around, grab is more maneagable than the stunlock meta, and the chainsaw is something that has nothing to do with melee.
Evilsack wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:00 pm
right now melee is highly risky with little reward (Depending on who you are) compared to before - which is most likely why people are annoyed. It's a good change for the long run though.
I think it's quite the opposite tbh.
Before, you could lose all (or at least a great portion) of your hp by making a single mistake that resulted in a stunlock hell (I mean, even blocking the enemy could lead to getting stunlocked anyway).
Right now, the fight gives you more chances to prevail on the enemy, even if he had a better start than you.
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Post by RickAvory » Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:38 pm

Del Poncho wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:45 pm
RickAvory wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:05 pm
I’m not sure what game you played, but that was not how melee worked. If you are in a stun lock you were never doomed to lose all your health, you had means of blocking, rolling, dodging, and reciprocating the offensive.
The term stunlock literally means to stun the enemy while he's already stunned, thus not giving him any way to defend himself - and that's what happened against players that knew what to do.
Of course it wasn't an everyday thing to just "oneshot" someone, you had to be really good at it, and the enviroment had to be in your favor, but it was quite common to see someone lose half of his hp just because he got punched once (hell, a lot of these combos worked even if you got blocked (...)
You can say and call it whatever you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that it literally doesn’t happen in the game. I don’t see anything wrong with being good at a mechanic in the game, I don’t know why We aren’t encouraging skill and progression.
Del Poncho wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:45 pm

[quote=RickAvory post_id=20634 time=<a href="tel:1545847555">1545847555</a> user_id=873]
If you want to argue that it was overpowering to the less proficient players, they always had the option to just run away.
That's not my point, but if we want to bring it up, forcing new players to just run away is possibly the worst solution to the problem.
First, you'll never learn melee if any interaction with it is "run or get stunlocked to death".
Second, it's quite easy to catch someone running, especially in the case of a new player against a seasoned one.
[/quote]

If you want to say that, fine I can agree with you. But can we really treat new players the same as someone who had played for years? It is their job to get better it shouldn’t be our jobs to spoon feed them success when it isn’t merited or deserved. I went through it, you went through it, we all went through it. As I said before, those stun locks that happen are absurdly rare, even if it is a new player it is foreign to see someone preform a perfect stunlock that completely depletes all of their health.

Running isn’t going to help them with melee... sure, but they can acquire a weapon that can later be used to their advantage. As they continue playing they will be in melee situations with people who are less proficient in melee. Hell we have bots now that anyone can play with in any situation, such as melee, in which the new player can improve upon. Again... we all went through it, I don’t know why new players can’t. They are more than capable.
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Post by Del Poncho » Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:01 pm

RickAvory wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:38 pm
You can say and call it whatever you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that it literally doesn’t happen in the game.
I guess we had a radically different experience then.
RickAvory wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:38 pm
I don’t see anything wrong with being good at a mechanic in the game, I don’t know why We aren’t encouraging skill and progression.
We could argue that, compared to the result it gave, the stunlock meta definitely didn't have a high skill ceiling. But that's not even a point I'm interested in making.
The problem is that a skilled player could kill a full-health player, without said player having a single word in it after the first punch. "High level" plays meant that the first player that managed to put the enemy on the ground won. It's something that happened, it was horrible, and if you really didn't encounter them in 99% of the rounds in that period...well I wish I played in whatever servers you played, because mine was full of this cheese.

And for the love of everything that's sacred, remember that roll punches negated blocks. There's no argoument on hearth that would make me think that's a good mechanic.
RickAvory wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:38 pm
If you want to say that, fine I can agree with you. But can we really treat new players the same as someone who had played for years? It is their job to get better it shouldn’t be our jobs to spoon feed them success when it isn’t merited or deserved. I went through it, you went through it, we all went through it. As I said before, those stun locks that happen are absurdly rare, even if it is a new player it is foreign to see someone preform a perfect stunlock that completely depletes all of their health.

Running isn’t going to help them with melee... sure, but they can acquire a weapon that can later be used to their advantage. As they continue playing they will be in melee situations with people who are less proficient in melee. Hell we have bots now that anyone can play with in any situation, such as melee, in which the new player can improve upon. Again... we all went through it, I don’t know why new players can’t. They are more than capable.
Again, that's a point you came up with, I just argoumented on it a bit just for the sake of discussing things on the internet. I don't think it's a major point in this discussion.
Unfortunately, at least on my server, this meta was almost omnipresent. I don't know if it demotivated new players to go in melee, but sure as hell it demotivated me.
And it's not just losing in melee that demotivated me, it was losing after the first punch. If I have a good fight with someone, even if he predicts and counters my every move, even if I can't manage to land a single hit on him, hell at least we both played the full fight.
With the old cheese, after you got to the ground one time, you could just leave and go grab a snack, because by the time your character got up you were already dead.
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Post by MScull » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:29 pm

Del Poncho wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:01 pm
We could argue that, compared to the result it gave, the stunlock meta definitely didn't have a high skill ceiling. But that's not even a point I'm interested in making.
The problem is that a skilled player could kill a full-health player, without said player having a single word in it after the first punch. "High level" plays meant that the first player that managed to put the enemy on the ground won. It's something that happened, it was horrible, and if you really didn't encounter them in 99% of the rounds in that period...well I wish I played in whatever servers you played, because mine was full of this cheese.
Fake news. You were never able to stun-lock a player from full health to death. I might know were this feeling is coming from tho. If you decided to not roll away or simply run away, but instead block. The player could hit you after the block and pull of a combo again (not killing you).
The melee system was balanced and rewarded players with skill. I must agree that the double hit (hit roll jump hit) was indeed in need of a fix.
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Post by Del Poncho » Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:33 am

MScull wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:29 pm
Fake news. You were never able to stun-lock a player from full health to death. I might know were this feeling is coming from tho. If you decided to not roll away or simply run away, but instead block. The player could hit you after the block and pull of a combo again (not killing you).
The melee system was balanced and rewarded players with skill. I must agree that the double hit (hit roll jump hit) was indeed in need of a fix.
I honestly think you're wrong here. It required quite some specific placement, but it was not rare enough to be negligible. While I probably wouldn't be really able to do it right now, both because I never really used (intentionally) the stunlock cheese outside of some tests, and because we're talking of something that happened months ago. But I might be hella wrong.

But even if a true 100 to 0 hp stunlock didn't exist (I still think it did), the situation was riddicolous. And in a bad way.
Combos were still a huge problem, as they took a huge chunk of your hp with bare hands. None of these cases includes weapons, that not only increase the damage output, but the range too (thus, increasing the stun options).
If you tried to fight someone with a katana, either you managed to stunlock him, or he would end you in a few seconds, because a katana has enough range to be quite impossible to be dodged (during a melee fight), and blocking wouldn't really help, since roll-attacks negated blocks. And not being able to block meant that you were up for another combo fun ride.

I mean come on, we're really asking for a move that negates blocks? The core move of every fighting game ever created to come back? This request would barely make sense if melee was limited to punches and kicks.
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Post by RickAvory » Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:57 am

Del Poncho wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:33 am
MScull wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:29 pm
Fake news. You were never able to stun-lock a player from full health to death. I might know were this feeling is coming from tho. If you decided to not roll away or simply run away, but instead block. The player could hit you after the block and pull of a combo again (not killing you).
The melee system was balanced and rewarded players with skill. I must agree that the double hit (hit roll jump hit) was indeed in need of a fix.
I honestly think you're wrong here. It required quite some specific placement, but it was not rare enough to be negligible. While I probably wouldn't be really able to do it right now, both because I never really used (intentionally) the stunlock cheese outside of some tests, and because we're talking of something that happened months ago. But I might be hella wrong.

But even if a true 100 to 0 hp stunlock didn't exist (I still think it did), the situation was riddicolous. And in a bad way.
Combos were still a huge problem, as they took a huge chunk of your hp with bare hands. None of these cases includes weapons, that not only increase the damage output, but the range too (thus, increasing the stun options).
If you tried to fight someone with a katana, either you managed to stunlock him, or he would end you in a few seconds, because a katana has enough range to be quite impossible to be dodged (during a melee fight), and blocking wouldn't really help, since roll-attacks negated blocks. And not being able to block meant that you were up for another combo fun ride.

I mean come on, we're really asking for a move that negates blocks? The core move of every fighting game ever created to come back? This request would barely make sense if melee was limited to punches and kicks.
I don’t even know if it’s worth debating this any more since I don’t even care if the feature gets re-added or not... but give me a break. There were a multitude of ways to get away or defend a stunlock. Only if the other player desided to do absolutely nothing then would there be a complete stunlock abuse. I feel like this feature is being given a negative stigma that it really doesn’t deserve.

Listen. Whether you like the move or not, it’s gone, and it probably isn’t going to come back. We just need to adapt to the change. I know it sucks at first, this was the reaction of many (including myself) when the grab feature was implemented, however we have since adapted to defending it and incorporating it in our melees as a legitimate attack. We just need to do the same here. I trust that the devs know what they are doing with their game.
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Post by Del Poncho » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:30 am

RickAvory wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:57 am
There were a multitude of ways to get away or defend a stunlock. Only if the other player desided to do absolutely nothing then would there be a complete stunlock abuse. I feel like this feature is being given a negative stigma that it really doesn’t deserve.
I just can't agree with that. The fact that the roll-hit negated blocks made the cheese quite uncounterable, if not by dodging. And dodging was countered by having a weapon with a bit of range. To me, the "negative stigma" is well deserved.
RickAvory wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:57 am
I don’t even know if it’s worth debating this any more since I don’t even care if the feature gets re-added or not [..]

Listen. Whether you like the move or not, it’s gone, and it probably isn’t going to come back. We just need to adapt to the change. I know it sucks at first, this was the reaction of many (including myself) when the grab feature was implemented, however we have since adapted to defending it and incorporating it in our melees as a legitimate attack. We just need to do the same here. I trust that the devs know what they are doing with their game.
The forum is here exactly to discuss game mechanics (and highlight bugs design choices)...I'm not just arguing just for the sake of arguing, I'm doing so because I want to give my feedback, and express my opinion on what I think is right for the game. And my guess is that it's what everybody else in this post did too.
The devs don't just go blindly following what they think it's right, they listen to the community, if they find a post that gives good argouments on why a feature should or shouldn't be in the game, that becomes food for thought.
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Post by Sh4d0w » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:02 am

2_Wraith wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:50 pm
First things first, it's pretty stupid how you all consider these combos as "meta", a strategy or a move is only termed as meta when it is accessible to a specific set of character or equipment, it's a moba term, when you call a hero or it's move a meta, it makes sense because not everyone has or goes for the same hero. but in sfd, combos aren't meta because every goddamn player gets to execute them. it isn't some move restricted to only a few players, so stop calling them a meta.
Everyone can pretty much access these combos if they know how to initiate them. You also stated that "combos aren't meta because every player gets to execute them", and that's where you're wrong. See, most of SFD playerbase right now are the veterans and they know how to do such combos. Saying that every single SFD player knows how to do "the meta combos" is an exaggeration, as there are some players new to the game and they might want to play it casually.
2_Wraith wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:50 pm
second, Y'all have a disgusting perspective on melee, basing melee off rock paper scissors might be the most retarded things I've heard/seen. really? you want melee to be based off a game where you literally throw in a move and hope luck is in your side? that's your vision on melee? well you might as well ask the devs to change the melee action animations to the super fighters doing rock/paper/scissors with their hands, that would make more sense smh.
And you have a disgusting perspective of a discussion. If you think that aggression is the best way to persuade someone, then congrats, you're officially a winner of every single choleric debate. Also that's great how you say that everyone has the same perspective on melee. Ask other people about how they feel about the melee and don't restrict your thoughts only because some people disagree to your suggestion. And seriously, SFD melee is Rock, Paper, Scissors? What will we get next, a spawn system based on Tetris?
2_Wraith wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:50 pm
I really don't see why these combos can't be in place when there are grabs in game. these combos doing a mass damage of 35 is considered overpowered but getting grabbed and thrown off the map is normal? I know getting thrown out of the map by a grab is situational but so are occasions where there is a crate or barrel near by aligned properly for you to pull a combo off.
You don't need to pull off combos like these with a crate or a barrel. If you're smart enough, you'll do fine without using the furniture to help you perform the combo. Also, there's a difference between taking over 1/3 of your health in a single combo and using a move that has random chances of killing a player instantly. The outcome of the second case depends mostly on environment, and the first case doesn't really have any restrictions.
2_Wraith wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:50 pm
Chainsaws being the "bazooka" of melee? Sure it should be overpowered if it is the bazooka of melee, except Melee doesn't need a fucking bazooka. melee isn't like guns. going against a person with a bazooka when you have an AR isn't the same as going against a person with a chainsaw when you have another melee weapon, when it's bazooka v AR, there are lots of ways to approach the opponent, you can disarm him by throwing makeshifts, you can take cover and take peek shots or bait him to waste some ammo but when it's chainsaw vs another melee weapon, there are no ways of approaching him because the moment you go near him to melee, it's gonna stun lock you to death.
Well, I'd rather say that Chainsaw is more of melee version of M60. It's swift, it has some decent amount of fuel and the enemies are definitely going to have a bad time. And there are also some ways to deal with the chainsaw - explosives, fire and bullets. You don't really have to fight the chainsaw directly. And hey, who said that fighting a chainsaw in melee is impossible? I came out victorious from a battle against a chainsaw user by using a chain.
2_Wraith wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:50 pm
and last but not the least, the most stupid argument y'all put me through with. all of this were done to ENCOURAGE OFFENSIVE STYLE

> making melee a literal 50/50 slapping contest
> removing all kinds of strategies that spiced up melee
> taking away all sorts of evading moves and making melee extremely risky now that melee is all about pressing a button and hope you did the right move
Okay, so from what I've understood, you want to say that the only type of melee that should function is defensive melee. This will have the same result, as both players will just wait for one of them to strike. It's going to look like this:
► Show Spoiler
I seriously doubt that it was a 50/50 slapping contest, as you could've turned the tables. Not to mention, this isn't some D&D stuff where you have to throw a die to see if you're going to hit or not. The same goes to the "present melee". Additionally, I'm sure that you can always create new strategies to "spice up melee" - just because the old strategies were removed, it doesn't mean you mustn't create the new ones.
2_Wraith wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:50 pm
if you ask me, that kind of encouraged me to never melee again. a huge round of applause for the devs' brilliant ways to encourage offensive style
I'd say it's good to encourage the players to use another melee style, as their experience will change and they won't have to witness that one melee style they've seen too much.

also bazooka in melle when
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Post by Sree » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:08 am

Sh4d0w wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:02 am
Everyone can pretty much access these combos if they know how to initiate them. You also stated that "combos aren't meta because every player gets to execute them", and that's where you're wrong. See, most of SFD playerbase right now are the veterans and they know how to do such combos. Saying that every single SFD player knows how to do "the meta combos" is an exaggeration, as there are some players new to the game and they might want to play it casually.
in my opinion, it was never meta because it was never the "Most" effective strategy. moreover there is nothing wrong with having metas, wider range of tactics will only promote dynamic combat.

it gets confusing how you say that most of the SFD playerbase right now are veterans and know how to perform these combos, implying that the tactic is prevalent and should be removed and then say something along the lines "not everyone knows how to perform them, there are new players in the game". new players need not be treated the same as experienced players, this is what Rick Avory discussed about before. new players should stand a chance against experienced players but they should never be at the same level of domination as experienced players.
Sh4d0w wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:02 am
And you have a disgusting perspective of a discussion. If you think that aggression is the best way to persuade someone, then congrats, you're officially a winner of every single choleric debate. Also that's great how you say that everyone has the same perspective on melee. Ask other people about how they feel about the melee and don't restrict your thoughts only because some people disagree to your suggestion. And seriously, SFD melee is Rock, Paper, Scissors? What will we get next, a spawn system based on Tetris?
juicy hypocrisy right there, you do realize that you are also being aggressive right? Melee being inspired by rock paper scissors is something everyone believe in, I even recall gurt agreeing to it.
Sh4d0w wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:02 am
You don't need to pull off combos like these with a crate or a barrel. If you're smart enough, you'll do fine without using the furniture to help you perform the combo. Also, there's a difference between taking over 1/3 of your health in a single combo and using a move that has random chances of killing a player instantly. The outcome of the second case depends mostly on environment, and the first case doesn't really have any restrictions.
no you can't pull off these combos without a furniture near by to help you evade kneeling. again, having a power combo that takes more than 1/3rd of your health isn't bad, there are guns like sniper rifles and magnums that do the same effortlessly, any automatic rifle can drop 1/3rd of an opponent's health if you know how to use them but i guess they get a pass because they are "guns" and they are limited by spawn chances huh? also I disagree that these combos were being pulled off very easily and frequently.
Sh4d0w wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:02 am
Well, I'd rather say that Chainsaw is more of melee version of M60. It's swift, it has some decent amount of fuel and the enemies are definitely going to have a bad time. And there are also some ways to deal with the chainsaw - explosives, fire and bullets. You don't really have to fight the chainsaw directly. And hey, who said that fighting a chainsaw in melee is impossible? I came out victorious from a battle against a chainsaw user by using a chain.
Chainsaw is nothing like the melee version of m60. I can handle a player with a m60 if i have any other guns, but it's not the same with chainsaw and any other melee weapon. chainsaw dominates any other melee weapon. also chain saw deflects bullets so It's not a very effective counter. You coming out victorious from a battle against a chainsaw user isn't really a good argument because that's situational, the point wraith made is any COMPETENT player can dominate another in a melee combat with chainsaw and I can't agree more with him.
Sh4d0w wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:02 am
Okay, so from what I've understood, you want to say that the only type of melee that should function is defensive melee. This will have the same result, as both players will just wait for one of them to strike. It's going to look like this:
That is not what he meant, He meant that the devs' strategies to promote/encourage offensive melee style only succeeded in making him not melee at all because melee is very risky now, It's unpredictable and based off chance.
Sh4d0w wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:02 am
I seriously doubt that it was a 50/50 slapping contest, as you could've turned the tables. Not to mention, this isn't some D&D stuff where you have to throw a die to see if you're going to hit or not. The same goes to the "present melee".
huh? one could easily turn the tables because melee is 50/50, if you are lucky enough and hit a chain of right moves then you are turning the tables there.. out of pure luck, nothing else which is why melee is risky and literally just a 50/50 slapping contest. and no, melee is like a "D&D stuff", you press a key and hope you hit the right move.
Sh4d0w wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:02 am
I'd say it's good to encourage the players to use another melee style, as their experience will change and they won't have to witness that one melee style they've seen too much.
except what wraith says is that all of this encouraged him to never use melee again.. not adapt another melee style lol
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Post by RickAvory » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:43 pm

Sree wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:08 am
New players need not be treated the same as experienced players, this is what Rick Avory discussed about before. new players should stand a chance against experienced players but they should never be at the same level of domination as experienced players.
That’s what us people in the Biz like to call “communism”. Only difference here is that instead of equal amounts of poverty, you equally get a slow mundane gameplay experience. Don’t let the commies take over.

Jokes aside, New Players are naturally going to have trouble in the start, I know I did. But we all get better over time. It’s how it should work. New players shouldn’t expect to beat experienced players. The experienced player got there over time and earned that rank.
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Post by Pricey » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:10 pm

Rick Avory wrote:New players shouldn't expect to beat experienced players.
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