Makeshift weapons don't need to deal so much damage.

[mgtr14]

Makeshift weapons are already disposable since we could throw, we can rain bottles onto someone and then rush in. Maybe even throwing at the right time so we can grab thereafter, or instantly grabbing upon breaking our weapon (Please fix this ASAP, this move is getting popular).
So since makeshift weapons can already deal some extra damage on the side, are plentiful (so therefore disposable), and can set up grabs or other attacks and shots. I don't see the reason to why we need the trash can lid to deal around 17 damage, or have the suitcase equal the shotgun in damage.
We can deal 22 + 17 damage with a suitcase, and since it breaks on first hit we can grab people thereafter. That's an easy 39 damage, it's huge for a makeshift weapon I found on the ground. Or how a flag can almost take half of someone's HP.
They will still be used over fists in new rounds, they're great as thrown missiles. They won't be rendered useless if you lower the damage.

I really don't have much more to say, I don't think it needs much more explaining unless you have any questions. I just think that a damage nerf to makeshifts would be enough, and fixing that insta-grab bug.

[Tom Th3 Assasin]

I don't hav anything to say against the damage(even with the suitcase).I really love the wacky impacts from them,its suitable amount of damage one MSW can make.the whole reason behind it is to end the match as quick as it can.sure I can say these are placed in every bit of a map.making every possible way to turn up the tables disarm,kill,grab even if we are totally fist dependent its pretty fair to outrun an assault gun throwing heavy or ultimately killing him with half naked bottle in lastdeath situation where 'weapon spawn' stops wouldn't that be astonishing yet satisfying?so we had to use these sort of advantages for the win anyhow.again its always 50/50 with no holds barred.
we have been enough sceptical regarding just damage.I think we can make a counter to a move not reffering melee let say to today's post making makeshiftwepons spawn to very least depending on the no of players in lobby would work.

[Sree]

I think the more suitable nerf to make-shift weapons is to reduce it's durability.

Ye i know make-shift weapons break immediately when they impact on a player but there is another case scenario where the attack gets blocked, they only take damage when this happen and they don't break on impact.

I tried this with suitcases and apparently a suitcase can sustain up to 3 opponent blocks, I think this is what that should be addressed. Suitcases deal way too much damage, so it should at least be a 50 - 50, if you manage to hit someone with a suitcase - you deal heavy damage and instead if opponent blocks the incoming attack, it should deal no damage and the suitcase should be shattered instead of giving the player another chance. the same should go for chairs and other make-shift weapons like bottles.

but then again, if an incoming attack with a suitcase is blocked and the suitcase gets shattered, the enemy can still insta-grab lol, so I think the insta-grab should be addressed to as well.

[mgtr14]

I don't hav anything to say against the damage(even with the suitcase).I really love the wacky impacts from them,its suitable amount of damage one MSW can make.the whole reason behind it is to end the match as quick as it can.sure I can say these are placed in every bit of a map.making every possible way to turn up the tables disarm,kill,grab even if we are totally fist dependent its pretty fair to outrun an assault gun throwing heavy or ultimately killing him with half naked bottle in lastdeath situation where 'weapon spawn' stops wouldn't that be astonishing yet satisfying?so we had to use these sort of advantages for the win anyhow.again its always 50/50 with no holds barred.
we have been enough sceptical regarding just damage.I think we can make a counter to a move not reffering melee let say to today's post making makeshiftwepons spawn to very least depending on the no of players in lobby would work.

Sorry if I misunderstood your post. So you're saying that makeshift weapons can turn the table partly due to their damage and that it makes the match quicker? And that the only nerf you'd want is to limit the spawn amount based on how many players there are?

Makeshift weapons can just be used as throwables and lets you close the gap between an enemy, no matter if it does 22 damage or 1. If you run up on them before they're no longer stunned or after they're done blocking, you've turned it into a melee fight. Atleast you've got a chance now, and maybe you even got the chance to combo and then grab them. Just having something to throw for some extra damage is good enough, and it can let you grab or get close safely.

And please don't defend powerful weapons because "They make the match quicker", because it makes it too quick. A combo with a suitcase would be to do an air attack while avoiding cooldown, kick them over and then grab. 22 + 3 + 17 = 42 damage in a simple combo, almost half of someone's HP. Imagine if you got a couple of hits on someone using a trash can lid, it actually deals *alot* of damage on each 4 swings it has. That could easily take them down almost half of their HP yet again, without grabbing (I know the range is even shorter than fists, that's why you should jump close).

I don't want to limit the amount of makeshift weapons, but I guess that's one way to go about it. Since makeshifts are already good enough for getting close and setting up combos, their damage is too high.

I think the more suitable nerf to make-shift weapons is to reduce it's durability.

Ye i know make-shift weapons break immediately when they impact on a player but there is another case scenario where the attack gets blocked, they only take damage when this happen and they don't break on impact.

I tried this with suitcases and apparently a suitcase can sustain up to 3 opponent blocks, I think this is what that should be addressed. Suitcases deal way too much damage, so it should at least be a 50 - 50, if you manage to hit someone with a suitcase - you deal heavy damage and instead if opponent blocks the incoming attack, it should deal no damage and the suitcase should be shattered instead of giving the player another chance. the same should go for chairs and other make-shift weapons like bottles.

but then again, if an incoming attack with a suitcase is blocked and the suitcase gets shattered, the enemy can still insta-grab lol, so I think the insta-grab should be addressed to as well.

That's why I didn't suggest reduced durability, it would accidentaly make them more powerful. If the grab bug was fixed, then I'd suggest reduced durability too. But I do still think that the damage is too high for something that we just think of as disposable anyways. Then there's also how throwing itself works, which is already pretty overpowered when tied together with grabs and suitcases.

[Tom Th3 Assasin]

There are certain situations where you could spam-throw 3 bottles a double cue sticks and a bunch of chairs on a single opponent with very less effort.Doesnt that rung any bells?

Now regarding on your mathematical logic for suitcase case combo which is for sure.a single suitcase would most likely to be thrown from distance knackgerating grab or other stun locking combos(if you try to avoid melee).I would be ready to take and act defensively soon for the coming 42 damage.since there would be only 2 or 1 suitcase's lying around nd with a distant to each other so i would care less about it(like you said there a chance of being a victim for it again).the combo you presented seems skilled and timely.skillful players are not a myth anymore so it can be counter.

The rarity rate I suggested would not encourage the makeshift weapons so they would do their high damage job with less manpower.using them wisely instead raining them if you runout to be unarmed.

[Sree]

There are certain situations where you could spam-throw 3 bottles a double cue sticks and a bunch of chairs on a single opponent with very less effort.Doesnt that rung any bells?

Yeah and the opponent would be standing completely still and passive while you keep throwing 3 bottles double cue sticks and a bunch of chairs, not considering that this is highly situational and that the opponent can't catch your first throw and counter you. damn.. in fact my bells are ringing really loud right now, I think they are trying to alarm me of the incoming stupidity.

Now regarding on your mathematical logic for suitcase case combo which is for sure.a single suitcase would most likely to be thrown from distance knackgerating grab or other stun locking combos(if you try to avoid melee).

No, the suitcase would be thrown or used when the opponent is right next to you, so he can combo the throw or the attack with a grab.

I would be ready to take and act defensively soon for the coming 42 damage.

Don't you see it? Isn't it over powered when you are forced to act defensively or fall back? if an opponent gets a bazooka, I am sure as hell not approaching him directly, I would fall back, play more passive and careful because I know i would get gib'ed to death otherwise. me being able to change my playstyle to evade an incoming 100 damage shot no way justifies the power of the weapon.

The rarity rate I suggested would not encourage the makeshift weapons so they would do their high damage job with less manpower.using them wisely instead raining them if you runout to be unarmed.

The suitcases are already pretty rare, the spawn rate of the make shift items need not be tinkered with but even then, what do you mean by "less man power"? the 42 damage combo is already a wise move you can perform with a make shift item. you are only addressing to one part of this issue which is being able to hurl a lot of make shift items towards a player, but that is highly situational and can be easily avoided or countered by catching the initially thrown item and counter him by throwing it or hitting him back, pretty sure the time delay between grabbing another make shift item and throwing it back gives you enough time to counter the player trying to spam throw the items.

[Del Poncho]

The problem is that you can find a real high amount of these weapons in the game, and wether or not they deal too much damage, their disposability makes them an excellent throwing weapon choice.

What I mean is that throwing a weapon would be considered a bit of a "desperate" move - you throw your weapon, deal some damage, usually stun the enemy - but you'll have lost your weapon, or maybe you may have given it to the enemy.

With makeshift weapons there isn't this problem, as you throw one, you'll usually find another right next to it, making them a bunch of free stuns and knockdowns (wich usually lead to losing half of your hp if your enemy stunlocks you with a bunch of combos).

Also, their damage DOES seem to me a bit over the top, I don't think they should be much more viable than punches, damage-wise. They already give good advantages for what matters range and throwability.

On a semi-related note, that's what I think should be made for thrown weapons, as their advantage should not be in damage, but in stuns, knockdowns, disarming and by being a good way to take someone behind cover. The damage should be really secondary (apart for special weapons such as knives).

[mgtr14]

Just going to add onto this post...

There are certain situations where you could spam-throw 3 bottles a double cue sticks and a bunch of chairs on a single opponent with very less effort.Doesnt that rung any bells?

Yeah and the opponent would be standing completely still and passive while you keep throwing 3 bottles double cue sticks and a bunch of chairs, not considering that this is highly situational and that the opponent can't catch your first throw and counter you. damn.. in fact my bells are ringing really loud right now, I think they are trying to alarm me of the incoming stupidity.

Now regarding on your mathematical logic for suitcase case combo which is for sure.a single suitcase would most likely to be thrown from distance knackgerating grab or other stun locking combos(if you try to avoid melee).

No, the suitcase would be thrown or used when the opponent is right next to you, so he can combo the throw or the attack with a grab.

You can just throw anything at someone while you're in fist range, and then grab them thereafter. Either they blocked it and are still standing still equipping the weapon, or they're stunned. It's a win win situation for the thrower and we've got countless makeshift opportunities for just that bullshit tactic.

I would be ready to take and act defensively soon for the coming 42 damage.

Don't you see it? Isn't it over powered when you are forced to act defensively or fall back? if an opponent gets a bazooka, I am sure as hell not approaching him directly, I would fall back, play more passive and careful because I know i would get gib'ed to death otherwise. me being able to change my playstyle to evade an incoming 100 damage shot no way justifies the power of the weapon.

Like for grabs, grenade launchers, throwing anything(especially knives), etc.
Hey, just block thrown weapons, right? I feel like the counters don't even add up to the power of the moves you just countered. It's not like blocking a knife is equal to dealing 35 damage. Punching someone who tried to grab will never equal a situational instakill or 17 + potential fall damage.

Also, you can't defend against the rest of a combo. If that first swing hits, you're done. You should rather say that you will defend the first hit, but if they're throwing and grabbing then you're still fucked.

The rarity rate I suggested would not encourage the makeshift weapons so they would do their high damage job with less manpower.using them wisely instead raining them if you runout to be unarmed.

The suitcases are already pretty rare, the spawn rate of the make shift items need not be tinkered with but even then, what do you mean by "less man power"? the 42 damage combo is already a wise move you can perform with a make shift item. you are only addressing to one part of this issue which is being able to hurl a lot of make shift items towards a player, but that is highly situational and can be easily avoided or countered by catching the initially thrown item and counter him by throwing it or hitting him back, pretty sure the time delay between grabbing another make shift item and throwing it back gives you enough time to counter the player trying to spam throw the items.

You don't even need every single makeshift item, at least it will limit the amount of combo starters for anything to just use. But that's it. Just spawn 1 suitcase per level and that's still a potential 42 damage combo. The damage is already enough encouragement, and more so that there's a lot and they're disposable and you can't holster them. May aswell throw them away at someone and hope it hits.

The problem is that you can find a real high amount of these weapons in the game, and wether or not they deal too much damage, their disposability makes them an excellent throwing weapon choice.

What I mean is that throwing a weapon would be considered a bit of a "desperate" move - you throw your weapon, deal some damage, usually stun the enemy - but you'll have lost your weapon, or maybe you may have given it to the enemy.

With makeshift weapons there isn't this problem, as you throw one, you'll usually find another right next to it, making them a bunch of free stuns and knockdowns (wich usually lead to losing half of your hp if your enemy stunlocks you with a bunch of combos).

Also, their damage DOES seem to me a bit over the top, I don't think they should be much more viable than punches, damage-wise. They already give good advantages for what matters range and throwability.

On a semi-related note, that's what I think should be made for thrown weapons, as their advantage should not be in damage, but in stuns, knockdowns, disarming and by being a good way to take someone behind cover. The damage should be really secondary (apart for special weapons such as knives).

The combos aren't really on the makeshift weapons, but on throwing itself. You may as well throw a knife and then grab them thereafter, or just about anything can be thrown and then followed up with a grab. The only real problem I have with makeshift weapons is their high damage on top of their many benefits. For something that is disposable and found around the level, allowing grabs and combos. It's so fragile that it breaks when it hits your opponent, giving him only splinters instead of a weapon he could've used himself.

[Tom Th3 Assasin]

On a semi-related note, that's what I think should be made for thrown weapons, as their advantage should not be in damage, but in stuns, knockdowns, disarming and by being a good way to take someone behind cover. The damage should be really secondary (apart for special weapons such as knives).

Who ever brought a pillow to a fist fight.do we choose Pillow over trashcan lid no?Nullifying the damage to a very little would serve the same way the present pillows are.Disarming is tricky you have to focus on his aim-stance not standing-holding,yet if he sees a minor 2 damage thing your about to throw(whtever suitcase,bottle,etc) he will simply ignore you and put the weapon in down to hold and take that minor damage.The very basic mistakes we usually make we turn to move away or jump,eventually taking heavy suitcase damage,Mistake was we didnt sheath the gun in nor blocked after ,obviously a minor mistake cost me a lose.We dont sheath our weapons to pillows or do we?

People are cheeky savage they try to win in every circumstances with a grin,whatever gets to their hands except pillows,you would jump in bare-hands to disarm with crucial fist damage rathar than a harmless pillow.we see beer billboards right?because its a bar,we also seen bar fights,so i guess that 'they' had to become deadly weapon's

we can rain bottles onto someone and then rush in. Maybe even throwing at the right time so we can grab thereafter, or instantly grabbing upon breaking our weapon (Please fix this ASAP, this move is getting popular).

There are certain situations where you could spam-throw 3 bottles a double cue sticks and a bunch of chairs on a single opponent with very less effort.Doesnt that rung any bells?

Take Hotel

makeshiftwepons spawn to very least depending on the no of players in lobby would work.

[Del Poncho]

The combos aren't really on the makeshift weapons, but on throwing itself. You may as well throw a knife and then grab them thereafter, or just about anything can be thrown and then followed up with a grab. The only real problem I have with makeshift weapons is their high damage on top of their many benefits. For something that is disposable and found around the level, allowing grabs and combos. It's so fragile that it breaks when it hits your opponent, giving him only splinters instead of a weapon he could've used himself.

Yes, you can obviously do these supah combos with every thrown weapons, hell, even by throwing a bazooka, but the point is that there's a bit of risk in throwing an axe, a knife or a katana, and the problem is that you may lose this weapon, in case of a miss - and the enemy might even take it.

With bottles and chairs there isn't this problem, they're cheap and expendable, you can throw them without really worrying that much about hitting the target.

[mgtr14]

On a semi-related note, that's what I think should be made for thrown weapons, as their advantage should not be in damage, but in stuns, knockdowns, disarming and by being a good way to take someone behind cover. The damage should be really secondary (apart for special weapons such as knives).

Who ever brought a pillow to a fist fight.do we choose Pillow over trashcan lid no?Nullifying the damage to a very little would serve the same way the present pillows are.Disarming is tricky you have to focus on his aim-stance not standing-holding,yet if he sees a minor 2 damage thing your about to throw(whtever suitcase,bottle,etc) he will simply ignore you and put the weapon in down to hold and take that minor damage.

Jesus, we don't need to nerf the makeshift weapons damage that much. Even at just 10 damage it's still 1/10 of your HP, which I honestly think would already be enough. You only have 100 hp, so it will still be in your best interest to dodge and block instead of trying to tank it. And even then, you can still just throw it and get close. Makeshift weapons can even deal no damage and I'm sure it would still be a great opportunity to get close to someone, disarm, force them into melee, etc. At this point, the damage is just a bonus.

The very basic mistakes we usually make we turn to move away or jump,eventually taking heavy suitcase damage,Mistake was we didnt sheath the gun in nor blocked after ,obviously a minor mistake cost me a lose.We dont sheath our weapons to pillows or do we?

A very good use for makeshift weapons is to give yourself an opportunity to escape or get close to your enemy. If they're hit and stunned, that's your chance to run, then dive and roll closer. A pillow can work as well as a suitcase when you want to get close, of course damage is good but it doesn't make a difference because either weapon will stun, maybe disarm, force him to block and equip the pillow, etc. I've had people scared to shoot me just because I held a bottle in throwing mode.

People are cheeky savage they try to win in every circumstances with a grin,whatever gets to their hands except pillows,you would jump in bare-hands to disarm with crucial fist damage rathar than a harmless pillow.we see beer billboards right?because its a bar,we also seen bar fights,so i guess that 'they' had to become deadly weapon's

If they really want to win so badly, then I'm sure they can even make use of a pillow.

we can rain bottles onto someone and then rush in. Maybe even throwing at the right time so we can grab thereafter, or instantly grabbing upon breaking our weapon (Please fix this ASAP, this move is getting popular).

There are certain situations where you could spam-throw 3 bottles a double cue sticks and a bunch of chairs on a single opponent with very less effort.Doesnt that rung any bells?

Take Hotel

makeshiftwepons spawn to very least depending on the no of players in lobby would work.

Already responded to this. I don't want to limit amount, but nerf the durability a bit and nerf the damage.

The combos aren't really on the makeshift weapons, but on throwing itself. You may as well throw a knife and then grab them thereafter, or just about anything can be thrown and then followed up with a grab. The only real problem I have with makeshift weapons is their high damage on top of their many benefits. For something that is disposable and found around the level, allowing grabs and combos. It's so fragile that it breaks when it hits your opponent, giving him only splinters instead of a weapon he could've used himself.

Yes, you can obviously do these supah combos with every thrown weapons, hell, even by throwing a bazooka, but the point is that there's a bit of risk in throwing an axe, a knife or a katana, and the problem is that you may lose this weapon, in case of a miss - and the enemy might even take it.

With bottles and chairs there isn't this problem, they're cheap and expendable, you can throw them without really worrying that much about hitting the target.

True, and I'm fine with makeshift weapons being disposable. The real bad part is how throwing works. It's a win win situation for the thrower, either you get hit and stunned or you've caught it. Either way, the thrower can get close. And if he was already close enough, he can just grab you. I do think that the counter to throws needs to be buffed in some way.

And throwing your own weapon isn't much of a risk if you can bait your opponent and then grab them. Also, your opponent can throw back anything he caught. He's already holding the weapon, so why not? If he does catch the weapon, then you can maybe just run away thereafter, or don't throw your melee weapon at all.

[Morpheus]

To be honest, I think the big deal about the makeshift weapons is for New Players.
It's simple to just pick up one of those bad boys and get in a cheap throw in. It's
an easy move to pull off. But I would agree, maybe they need to be decreased slightly
in terms of dmg/s.

[Gurt]

Off Topic

... instantly grabbing upon breaking our weapon (Please fix this ASAP, this move is getting popular)....

This specific thing is a bug. Strange that it hasn't been reported by anyone earlier as a separate bug if it is that popular.
Grab after melee weapon breaks fixed for the release version.
This could have been fixed long ago, shortly after grab was introduced, if just someone reported it. No need to wait around for it to be popular before reporting it

[Sree]

This specific thing is a bug. Strange that it hasn't been reported by anyone earlier as a separate bug if it is that popular.
Grab after melee weapon breaks fixed for the release version.
This could have been fixed long ago, shortly after grab was introduced, if just someone reported it. No need to wait around for it to be popular before reporting it

uh i am sorry?

https://mythologicinteractiveforums.com ... rab#p17337

Scull had reported it before and you even justified it by saying " you can only do this one for each broken weapon "

[mgtr14]

Off Topic

... instantly grabbing upon breaking our weapon (Please fix this ASAP, this move is getting popular)....

This specific thing is a bug. Strange that it hasn't been reported by anyone earlier as a separate bug if it is that popular.
Grab after melee weapon breaks fixed for the release version.
This could have been fixed long ago, shortly after grab was introduced, if just someone reported it. No need to wait around for it to be popular before reporting it

Thanks, maybe scull made it sound too much of a normal move I guess. But what about the entire topic right now about makeshift weapons?

[Gurt]

This specific thing is a bug. Strange that it hasn't been reported by anyone earlier as a separate bug if it is that popular.
Grab after melee weapon breaks fixed for the release version.
This could have been fixed long ago, shortly after grab was introduced, if just someone reported it. No need to wait around for it to be popular before reporting it

uh i am sorry?

https://mythologicinteractiveforums.com ... rab#p17337

Scull had reported it before and you even justified it by saying " you can only do this one for each broken weapon "

As I said back then over 2 years ago: "this is by design as of now". I don't even remember writing that back then. I don't even remember the code I wrote last week. Hjarpe and I discussed if this was by design or not just a few hours ago and this time we concluded that this was a bug. After all the discussion about grabbing and comboing and other stuff over the past 2 years we're thinking a little different when it comes to the melee system and its details, like breaking melee weapons.

[StarNord]

imo, I feel the only way to really help this would be to nerf the throw damage and slightly nerf the attack damage (if not at all), I feel it's a general consensus that it's easier to land a throw than it is to land a blow, (proud of that unintentional rhyme, make it ur signature you melee geeks...)

It's much more of a gamble to land a blow with a suitcase fighting face to face than to throw one while fleeing or chasing, asking to nerf cheap tricks is better than asking to nerf the whole thing, because if you ask to nerf the whole thing this is the response you're gonna get...

The makeshift weapons make absurd amounts of damage for a completely gamey reason (we want people to use them, because they're fun!). A chair doing twice the damage of a sword or whatever isn't realistic, but the visceral output of smacking it in someone's face and it splintering into bits makes the damage output seem plausible in the cartoony world of SFD.

Baby steps bois, baby steps...

[mgtr14]

imo, I feel the only way to really help this would be to nerf the throw damage and slightly nerf the attack damage (if not at all), I feel it's a general consensus that it's easier to land a throw than it is to land a blow, (proud of that unintentional rhyme, make it ur signature you melee geeks...)

It's much more of a gamble to land a blow with a suitcase fighting face to face than to throw one while fleeing or chasing, asking to nerf cheap tricks is better than asking to nerf the whole thing, because if you ask to nerf the whole thing this is the response you're gonna get...

Throwing IS the cheap trick. It deals a lot of damage, it can knock down players, it lets you grab players instantly thereafter, it can easily bait players.
The insane damage that makeshift weapons have doesn't help. I'd nerf both throws and makeshift weapons.

because if you ask to nerf the whole thing this is the response you're gonna get...

The makeshift weapons make absurd amounts of damage for a completely gamey reason (we want people to use them, because they're fun!). A chair doing twice the damage of a sword or whatever isn't realistic, but the visceral output of smacking it in someone's face and it splintering into bits makes the damage output seem plausible in the cartoony world of SFD.

Baby steps bois, baby steps...

Okay?
I disagree with Hjarpe, read my previous posts. This is why I think the damage should be nerfed. Even if throws do get nerfed, I still think that the damage from makeshift weapons should be nerfed too.

[GreenyShark]

It may be more realistic that the makeshift items the damage that they deal. If you throw a flag pole at someone in real life, wouldn't it be more life threatening in real life? if you throw a pillow, on the other hand, it would be really weak and would only catch someone off guard. Pillows are a great way to stop divers and anyone who's coming your way. Then we have bottles, which are very sharp and can cut someone. Bottles should keep the same damage dealt.

[mgtr14]

It may be more realistic that the makeshift items the damage that they deal. If you throw a flag pole at someone in real life, wouldn't it be more life threatening in real life? if you throw a pillow, on the other hand, it would be really weak and would only catch someone off guard. Pillows are a great way to stop divers and anyone who's coming your way. Then we have bottles, which are very sharp and can cut someone. Bottles should keep the same damage dealt.

Yeah, as you can see from the rest of the game, it's definitely trying to mimic reality. I've already said why it shouldn't deal so much damage, pulling out realism as an argument is stupid.