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The maps have horrible spots and designs.

Give us your input on how we may improve the game in future versions.
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mgtr14
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The maps have horrible spots and designs.

Post by mgtr14 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:00 pm

Due to the current melee mechanics and how the game is played out, some spots on maps (or even the entire layout of the map) is a huge problem.

Any spot with a low ceiling will have a problem with melee. Since we don't get kneel after falling a short distance after jump attacks, we can easily spam many attacks without our opponent being able to do anything. It becomes a problem when its near death pits, like in Tower and Rooftops 2. It litteraly becomes a "no go" zone if the opponent has more melee range than you, and then you'd need equipment that you won't always have. Like grenades, grenade launcher and bazooka, or molotovs that *may* fish them out. But then they usually have a place to retreat so they can just return thereafter.

Almost all maps has an impenetrable safe spot that is impossible to approach without taking damage or being at huge risk. In fairgrounds, that safe spot is the highest room. If there are props there, they've got cover. And items spawn there sometimes too, and you need to wait for the roller coaster to come along and then climb up the ladders. Not only do you risk getting shot at, you could easily be kicked off if you eventually come close. In rooftops 2, the top right and the left building are very safe places. You have cover, and even indestructible cover if you're behind the desk. You'd need grenades and other explosives if you want to deal damage, but you will definetely get shot at when you're trying to get close.

Ladders are way too close to the ground, this easily leads into abusive melee combos similar to the low ceiling spots. My suggestion would be to just put some space between the ground and the ladder so they would have to kneel when they drop and do a jump attack.

I don't want to list every example, but they're very obvious spots in every map. I'd also like to say that the portal doors used in maps can also make gameplay weird and turn a fight into a throwing match.

Now onto the maps themselves; they're way too open. Not only are there safe spots and low ceilings, there is almost nothing inbetween them. In trainyard, there is basically nothing in the middle, why would you stay there? The only way to approach each side is with the train, and good luck going from right to left, and then out of it safely. Heavy equipment? You can shoot across the map from those spots without much retaliation. Barely any cover in the middle and no way to get through safely. And there is a lack of options and cover when running through a map, going outside of those spots could be very risky when other players get guns and behind cover.

What does this lead to? Stalemates. An unbelievable amount of stalemates, only broken by risky moves that can easily get you killed. When both players either sit or run out in the open, they're most likely just going to sit. The only thing that could really break this is if one of them has enough HP or explosives.

How would I fix this? I think I'd simply avoid low ceilings and safe spots. Due to the nature and mechanics of the game, those spots will always just be "those spots". I'd make the maps less open and more close quarters in a way, Hotel is my favorite map because of this (Although it suffers from alot of low ceilings). Make sure the ladders are cut short, and I wouldn't use portals in my maps. I think the easy (And hopefully, temporary) solution would be to fix the maps up.
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Post by Hjarpe » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:42 pm

I agree that stalemates are annoying, and something we want to discourage. However, a map is always going to have spots that are more advantageous and defensible than others. Using ladders and ceilings to perform jump attacks is a perfectly valid way to play in my book, and you can't say that using these tactics in any way guarantee victory.

I'm all for making little tweaks if I get suggestions I like. But I don't see us redesigning the official maps adding a bunch of walls everywhere, or making every doorway ten feet tall...
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Post by KliPeH » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:07 pm

mgtr14 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:00 pm
I don't want to list every example [...]
mgtr14 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:00 pm
I'd make the maps less open and more close quarters in a way [...]
mgtr14 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:00 pm
I wouldn't use portals in my maps.
mgtr14 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:00 pm
I think the easy (And hopefully, temporary) solution would be to fix the maps up.
In that case I think the obvious solution is to make your own version of the official maps and see if those are more to your liking. That's what Lunatic did with his competitive edits but he's as bad at making maps as he's at everything else so that's too bad for him lmao

Seriously though, edit the maps and publish them to see if they succeed. If the devs like them they already have all those changes to implement into the existing versions and if not - you can still play the "balanced" version with your circle of SFD friends. Can't wait for the next "Storage 1.4 MELE FIX" or "Rooftops 2 of fights".
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Post by mgtr14 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:41 pm

Hjarpe wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:42 pm
I agree that stalemates are annoying, and something we want to discourage. However, a map is always going to have spots that are more advantageous and defensible than others. Using ladders and ceilings to perform jump attacks is a perfectly valid way to play in my book, and you can't say that using these tactics in any way guarantee victory.

I'm all for making little tweaks if I get suggestions I like. But I don't see us redesigning the official maps adding a bunch of walls everywhere, or making every doorway ten feet tall...
You're underestimating how bad those spots can get. In pistons, the only ways to the right part of the map is through deadly traps or getting props dropped on your head, while the conveyor takes you the opposite direction. Then you get to someone who is probably just running through the portal to avoid your shots (And then the throwing competition begins.)

The melee spots can be abused way worse than you think, a good player with more range can easily stunlock you and take a huge amount of health before you can even do anything, and they could easily repeat those moves. Maybe I could get a video to show you how bad it is, its not just a combo but a constant stream of attacks without cooldown.

Also, those low ceilings could be close to pits, so just combo into a grab and you could easily kill your opponent. Even if you don't win, its just a stupid spot that favours the one with the most range and the one who is already there.

KliPeH wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:07 pm
mgtr14 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:00 pm
I don't want to list every example [...]
mgtr14 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:00 pm
I'd make the maps less open and more close quarters in a way [...]
mgtr14 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:00 pm
I wouldn't use portals in my maps.
mgtr14 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:00 pm
I think the easy (And hopefully, temporary) solution would be to fix the maps up.
In that case I think the obvious solution is to make your own version of the official maps and see if those are more to your liking. That's what Lunatic did with his competitive edits but he's as bad at making maps as he's at everything else so that's too bad for him lmao
Seriously though, edit the maps and publish them to see if they succeed. If the devs like them they already have all those changes to implement into the existing versions and if not..
I may have sounded too opiniated, so I won't blame you for thinking so. I will clarify and say that this changes how the game plays out. Its not a simple "I dont like the look of this" type of deal, it actually changes how the game plays, and for the worse. It easily leads to stalemates and OP spots in the map that are easily abused and kept.
KliPeH wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:07 pm
- you can still play the "balanced" version with your circle of SFD friends. Can't wait for the next "Storage 1.4 MELE FIX" or "Rooftops 2 of fights".
Thats exactly my plan, finally! Someone who understands my point! I'm going to redesign every official map to be fit for melle and melle pro's only. I will first start by removing any gun spawns and make the entire maps flat (but the low ceilings will stay!). I will make sure that NOONE gets any makeshifts and etc, fists only. So put em up!
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Post by KliPeH » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:35 am

mgtr14 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:41 pm
Its not a simple "I dont like the look of this" type of deal, it actually changes how the game plays, and for the worse.
"It changes how the game plays" as opposed to what? Custom made content? As far as I'm concerned most official maps were designed this way from the ground up and never went any major changes to become "flawed" in the ways that you described. That's the way the maps always were and I can only assume the gameplay in those maps is the desired gameplay for SFD as a whole, otherwise official maps would feature more trivial/"fun" elements (think Pistons).
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Post by mgtr14 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:36 am

KliPeH wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:35 am
mgtr14 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:41 pm
Its not a simple "I dont like the look of this" type of deal, it actually changes how the game plays, and for the worse.
"It changes how the game plays" as opposed to what? Custom made content? As far as I'm concerned most official maps were designed this way from the ground up and never went any major changes to become "flawed" in the ways that you described. That's the way the maps always were and I can only assume the gameplay in those maps is the desired gameplay for SFD as a whole, otherwise official maps would feature more trivial/"fun" elements (think Pistons).
Hjarpe just said that he wants to discourage stalemates in the game, but it's the most common outcome. As I've said, it's only broken by someone who dares to make a move, usually if they have really good weapons or alot of HP. If you're going to have almost impenetrable spots that can be easily kept with just a pistol then you're going to get stalemates, simple as that. While most games actually do end with a winner, the smartest and safest decision would be to stay put and not try to approach because you risk dying if you don't have good enough weapons. People also camp the timer out because it's better than losing, and while I am all in for a round timer, it heavily encourages camping. Nothing happens for 45 seconds.

I'm fine with defendable spots in a map, but the current ones are what easily leads to something he wants to discourage. My general suggestion would be to just add more ways to approach it and more cover in the map, because those spots are safe because they're the only ones with good cover.

I'll get an example footage of how bad the stunlock can get, and how you can easily combo into instakills, changing the gameplay quite alot.
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Post by Del Poncho » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:48 pm

Hjarpe wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:42 pm
I'm all for making little tweaks if I get suggestions I like. But I don't see us redesigning the official maps adding a bunch of walls everywhere, or making every doorway ten feet tall...
mgtr14 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:00 pm
Any spot with a low ceiling will have a problem with melee.

I don't think this is a problem regarding maps, but something regarding melee in general.

Having ways to cancel the kneeling animation is something that is needed to make the melee more interesting and dynamic, that's for sure, but where the "land on something higher or under you to cancel the kneeling" thing works, this fails.

It takes no real positioning skills to get under a low ceiling, and it doesn't provide a "fun" challenge.
It takes no real skill to just spam jump attacks, especially with high-raged weapons, and it doesn't provide fun gameplay.
And worst of all, the guy that's condemned to be stunlocked all the time has no way to counter it. He will be stunned to the ground and hit back several times before even having the option to defend himself or get out of the fight.


In the end, this mechanic only gives players the ability to cheese away half of the enemy's Hp, even more if they have strong weapons.

I'm not trying to be the guy that wants a "competitive SFD", not even something really balanced (hell, we have bazookas! And they're hella fun!), but melee in the past few months has been extremely tedious, where failing to block one single attack can lead to being stunlocked to death, without having a way of defending yourself.
And all of this because of some of these mechanics, by design or not, that give the players too many ways to cancel the time between each attack.

If the "old" melee was a boring slapfight made of punches and blocks, the new melee is basically running around trying to stunlock someone and take half of his HPs before he can even block. We need to find that sweet spot inbetween these 2 types of melee.
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Post by Sree » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:22 pm

I think the problem with melee is partly how melee is designed and partly because of the maps. I don't really care much about low ceilings or crates/cans which can be used to avoid kneels, but these type of spots in the map are what I believe, the worst.

Image

Image

Image

Image

The pictures are self explanatory, almost all of my mates agreed that those spots are really annoying and it's hard to battle in those spots. a player can not only avoid kneels easily in those spots but also evade an upcoming punch by simply moving down the rows quickly, hitting the opponent simultaneously and swiftly do another jump kick or punch without having to kneel. The best way to sort this out is making it such that players will have to kneel after kicking/punching while jumping from 1 row to another one upwards.
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Post by [Failman] » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:48 pm

Sree wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:22 pm
I think the problem with melee is partly how melee is designed and partly because of the maps. I don't really care much about low ceilings or crates/cans which can be used to avoid kneels, but these type of spots in the map are what I believe, the worst.

Image

Image

Image

Image

The pictures are self explanatory, almost all of my mates agreed that those spots are really annoying and it's hard to battle in those spots. a player can not only avoid kneels easily in those spots but also evade an upcoming punch by simply moving down the rows quickly, hitting the opponent simultaneously and swiftly do another jump kick or punch without having to kneel. The best way to sort this out is making it such that players will have to kneel after kicking/punching while jumping from 1 row to another one upwards.

That’s a horrible idea, it would basically kill any momemtum the game used to have, the games already hard to get used to as it is after the jump kick nerf another nerf is not what we need, this is an issue of design not mechanics. Not only that if they did do that it would apply to all other high leverage combos too, meaning no more using boxes to keep momentum and no more pro combos, we’d basically regress to slap fight, run tactics and cheap throws to get any fun out of the game and no one wants that.
mgtr14 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:00 pm
Due to the current melee mechanics and how the game is played out, some spots on maps (or even the entire layout of the map) is a huge problem.

Any spot with a low ceiling will have a problem with melee. Since we don't get kneel after falling a short distance after jump attacks, we can easily spam many attacks without our opponent being able to do anything. It becomes a problem when its near death pits, like in Tower and Rooftops 2. It litteraly becomes a "no go" zone if the opponent has more melee range than you, and then you'd need equipment that you won't always have. Like grenades, grenade launcher and bazooka, or molotovs that *may* fish them out. But then they usually have a place to retreat so they can just return thereafter.

Almost all maps has an impenetrable safe spot that is impossible to approach without taking damage or being at huge risk. In fairgrounds, that safe spot is the highest room. If there are props there, they've got cover. And items spawn there sometimes too, and you need to wait for the roller coaster to come along and then climb up the ladders. Not only do you risk getting shot at, you could easily be kicked off if you eventually come close. In rooftops 2, the top right and the left building are very safe places. You have cover, and even indestructible cover if you're behind the desk. You'd need grenades and other explosives if you want to deal damage, but you will definetely get shot at when you're trying to get close.

Ladders are way too close to the ground, this easily leads into abusive melee combos similar to the low ceiling spots. My suggestion would be to just put some space between the ground and the ladder so they would have to kneel when they drop and do a jump attack.

I don't want to list every example, but they're very obvious spots in every map. I'd also like to say that the portal doors used in maps can also make gameplay weird and turn a fight into a throwing match.

Now onto the maps themselves; they're way too open. Not only are there safe spots and low ceilings, there is almost nothing inbetween them. In trainyard, there is basically nothing in the middle, why would you stay there? The only way to approach each side is with the train, and good luck going from right to left, and then out of it safely. Heavy equipment? You can shoot across the map from those spots without much retaliation. Barely any cover in the middle and no way to get through safely. And there is a lack of options and cover when running through a map, going outside of those spots could be very risky when other players get guns and behind cover.

What does this lead to? Stalemates. An unbelievable amount of stalemates, only broken by risky moves that can easily get you killed. When both players either sit or run out in the open, they're most likely just going to sit. The only thing that could really break this is if one of them has enough HP or explosives.

How would I fix this? I think I'd simply avoid low ceilings and safe spots. Due to the nature and mechanics of the game, those spots will always just be "those spots". I'd make the maps less open and more close quarters in a way, Hotel is my favorite map because of this (Although it suffers from alot of low ceilings). Make sure the ladders are cut short, and I wouldn't use portals in my maps. I think the easy (And hopefully, temporary) solution would be to fix the maps up.
Now if we talking about shit design then that crown goes to mall, you can only access floors threw elevator which guarantees camping and makes maneuvering through the map freaking horrible. It’s so far the only map I can honestly say I hate since it has high camp potential and such limited options on how to get from point A to Point B, and it’s just this map all the other maps have camping spots but like Hjarpe said before maps should have an area that’s more defendable then the rest but that maps just terrible.

Piston has its down side but it’s not something a few mines or nades can’t fix, and campings honestly a bad idea in most maps since they can easily be boxed in same with rooftop 2, I can not begin to tell you how many times I’ve been boxed in that area. The area in fairground with the roller coster can be delt with a few good rolls or some really good aim, it’s how I deal with it, plus there’s also that risk of falling from a high alltuide.

Now the ladder and ceiling problem I got mix feelings about. On one hand being able to take advantage of your environment is a show of good game design but on the othet hand, I’m terrible at using my advantages and I know that shit can be abused like nobodies business. However I love using ceiling to get an edge on my opponent, Which means I’d probably love using ladders if I could take advantage of it properly. So yea I acknowledge that it can be abused but I’m personally baised that’s why I’ll stay neutral.I think I’ve heard talk of Portals being nerfed so players won’t be able exploit btw not sure if this is true.

It’s funny we actually had an entire conversation about this in discord, if you want maps with less issues just look for sfd competative or get Vitamins E maps they address all these issues.

The last thing about stalemates though I can’t agree with one of the best thing about sfd is how it makes you take risks, It makes you take chances in order to attain a victory you so rightly deserve, to me one of the best feelings in sfd is winning in a high stress situation such as being pinged down from both sides while having nothing bu yer trusty shotgun. It makes me feel like a real action movie hero, kinda like a john wink but shrug that’s pretty subjective. :lol:
Last edited by [Failman] on Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Gurt » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:59 pm

We can't make everyone 100% satisfied with every decision we make or map design and we're fine with that. But we agree that stalemates are annoying but redesigning maps (or change the melee) won't fix players camping behind boxes. If you feel you have the upper hand and all you play for is to win then you're gonna be that guy camping behind the box - waiting for your opponent to make the first move against you.

This is why I find game modes forcing players to engage in one way or another interesting. For SFD it could be a mechanic similar to how the water raises in the worms games. It could be some gas clouds moving in from above, below, the sides or any combination after some time. This would force players to adapt and campers to abandon their "coverboxes" at the corner of maps.
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Post by mgtr14 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:32 pm

Del Poncho wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:48 pm
► Show Spoiler
I don't think this is a problem regarding maps, but something regarding melee in general.

Having ways to cancel the kneeling animation is something that is needed to make the melee more interesting and dynamic, that's for sure, but where the "land on something higher or under you to cancel the kneeling" thing works, this fails.

It takes no real positioning skills to get under a low ceiling, and it doesn't provide a "fun" challenge.
It takes no real skill to just spam jump attacks, especially with high-raged weapons, and it doesn't provide fun gameplay.
And worst of all, the guy that's condemned to be stunlocked all the time has no way to counter it. He will be stunned to the ground and hit back several times before even having the option to defend himself or get out of the fight.

In the end, this mechanic only gives players the ability to cheese away half of the enemy's Hp, even more if they have strong weapons.

I'm not trying to be the guy that wants a "competitive SFD", not even something really balanced (hell, we have bazookas! And they're hella fun!), but melee in the past few months has been extremely tedious, where failing to block one single attack can lead to being stunlocked to death, without having a way of defending yourself.
And all of this because of some of these mechanics, by design or not, that give the players too many ways to cancel the time between each attack.

If the "old" melee was a boring slapfight made of punches and blocks, the new melee is basically running around trying to stunlock someone and take half of his HPs before he can even block. We need to find that sweet spot inbetween these 2 types of melee.
This is definetely something that should be adressed. But right now I think that the only way to avoid it, is to fix the spots that encourage just that, devastating stun locking combos.

Anyways, that's for another topic IMO, I made this topic because I believe that the maps can be redesigned in a good way to avoid gameplay that noone really likes.


Sree wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:22 pm
I think the problem with melee is partly how melee is designed and partly because of the maps. I don't really care much about low ceilings or crates/cans which can be used to avoid kneels, but these type of spots in the map are what I believe, the worst.
► Show Spoiler
The pictures are self explanatory, almost all of my mates agreed that those spots are really annoying and it's hard to battle in those spots. a player can not only avoid kneels easily in those spots but also evade an upcoming punch by simply moving down the rows quickly, hitting the opponent simultaneously and swiftly do another jump kick or punch without having to kneel. The best way to sort this out is making it such that players will have to kneel after kicking/punching while jumping from 1 row to another one upwards.
While I do agree that those spots can be annoying, it really only is when you're not using a more suited playstyle for such spots. I try to move around alot too when I fight someone there, I could like those spots because they encourage a new playstyle that isn't just a bunch of stunlocking combos. Although I should maybe see if there is some sort of endgame to that anyways, like how we eventually found out how badly the grab move could be abused, especially with throws.

[Failman] wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:48 pm
► Show Spoiler
That’s a horrible idea, it would basically kill any momemtum the game used to have, the games already hard to get used to as it is after the jump kick nerf another nerf is not what we need, this is an issue of design not mechanics. Not only that if they did do that it would apply to all other high leverage combos too, meaning no more using boxes to keep momentum and no more pro combos, we’d basically regress to slap fight, run tactics and cheap throws to get any fun out of the game and no one wants that.
Agreed.
[Failman] wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:48 pm
► Show Spoiler
Now if we talking about shit design then that crown goes to mall, you can only access floors threw elevator which guarantees camping and makes maneuvering through the map freaking horrible. It’s so far the only map I can honestly say I hate since it has high camp potential and such limited options on how to get from point A to Point B,
Agreed.
[Failman] wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:48 pm
and it’s just this map all the other maps have camping spots but like Hjarpe said before maps should have an area that’s more defendable then the rest but that maps just terrible.
I disagree, we can definetely have approachable but defendable spots, it would just maybe require more ways to approach and leave, cover on the way, etc. Or maybe balance out the map so that there isn't a spot that is safer than others?
[Failman] wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:48 pm
Piston has its down side but it’s not something a few mines or nades can’t fix, and campings honestly a bad idea in most maps since they can easily be boxed in same with rooftop 2, I can not begin to tell you how many times I’ve been boxed in that area. The area in fairground with the roller coster can be delt with a few good rolls or some really good aim, it’s how I deal with it, plus there’s also that risk of falling from a high alltuide.
You're never boxed in, just run out when the time is right. You probably camped until someone got close enough for grenades, I guess? I'm talking about a good camper then. If you're in those spots and get hit by grenades, then you let them, because you have a place to retreat to when the enemy brings force. Getting shot at in Fairgrounds? Take cover for as long as possible and then just dive off the platform.
[Failman] wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:48 pm
Now the ladder and ceiling problem I got mix feelings about. On one hand being able to take advantage of your environment is a show of good game design but on the othet hand, I’m terrible at using my advantages and I know that shit can be abused like nobodies business. However I love using ceiling to get an edge on my opponent, Which means I’d probably love using ladders if I could take advantage of it properly. So yea I acknowledge that it can be abused but I’m personally baised that’s why I’ll stay neutral.I think I’ve heard talk of Portals being nerfed so players won’t be able exploit btw not sure if this is true.
It can be easily abused, look at Del Poncho's post.
[Failman] wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:48 pm
It’s funny we actually had an entire conversation about this in discord, if you want maps with less issues just look for sfd competative or get Vitamins E maps they address all these issues.
It would be really sad if the good changes would be made by the community instead of the developers.
[Failman] wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:48 pm
The last thing about stalemates though I can’t agree with one of the best thing about sfd is how it makes you take risks, It makes you take chances in order to attain a victory you so rightly deserve, to me one of the best feelings in sfd is winning in a high stress situation such as being pinged down from both sides while having nothing bu yer trusty shotgun. It makes me feel like a real action movie hero, kinda like a john wink but shrug that’s pretty subjective. :lol:
While I do agree that it is fun, you must've had a tremendous amount of luck. I believe that the current stalemates are again, only broken by very risky moves. If you want to be safe then stay put. There is no real way to approach, usually just one way and it's already infront their sight if they know how to properly defend. I think that there should be a way to approach quickly and without much working against you. In pistons, either props get in your way and the conveyor belt drags you back, or you go through death traps. Either way, you'll get shot and have props dropped on you, and risk getting kicked off. Not only can your opponent easily light you up from their safe spot, you're delayed and taking cover would mean wasting time since you're being dragged away.

TL;DR Just make such spots more approachable without needing an excessive amount of gun.
Gurt wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:59 pm
We can't make everyone 100% satisfied with every decision we make or map design and we're fine with that. But we agree that stalemates are annoying but redesigning maps (or change the melee) won't fix players camping behind boxes. If you feel you have the upper hand and all you play for is to win then you're gonna be that guy camping behind the box - waiting for your opponent to make the first move against you.
Then I think that the map needs to be redesigned in some way.

Some cover that is easily approachable and that can also be defended is fine, but these spots we have are absurd. Not only is it hard to approach, its easy to just leave it. That's the huge advantage that the camper has, anyone else who wants to approach is going to have a hard time but the camper is going to have an easy time to abandon it if needed (After the opponent has gotten through the hard approach). I strongly believe that there is a way to redesign the maps that could make melee play less exploited and reduce the amount of stalemates and give all players a fair chance to atleast start a fight. The map dictates how the game is played, and that's another thing that makes SFD special. Please use that.
Gurt wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:59 pm
This is why I find game modes forcing players to engage in one way or another interesting. For SFD it could be a mechanic similar to how the water raises in the worms games. It could be some gas clouds moving in from above, below, the sides or any combination after some time. This would force players to adapt and campers to abandon their "coverboxes" at the corner of maps.
You could just redesign the maps
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Post by Hjarpe » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:02 pm

Our point is that redesigning the maps won't solve the problems of players who want to camp. For the camper, a single piece of floor that bullets can't go through is enough to make them stay put, however boring that makes the game. As long as there is some form of cover, camping is gonna happen.

As Gurt said, we have long discussed the idea of a sudden-death mechanic that actually forces you to engage with other players or lose. Poison gas that closes in from all four edges of the level seems like a logical solution (as opposed to the water in Worms that only rises from below). It won't solve every camping situation, but it should at least discourage people from waiting for the timer to run down.
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Post by [Failman] » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:56 am

Hjarpe wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:02 pm
Our point is that redesigning the maps won't solve the problems of players who want to camp. For the camper, a single piece of floor that bullets can't go through is enough to make them stay put, however boring that makes the game. As long as there is some form of cover, camping is gonna happen.

As Gurt said, we have long discussed the idea of a sudden-death mechanic that actually forces you to engage with other players or lose. Poison gas that closes in from all four edges of the level seems like a logical solution (as opposed to the water in Worms that only rises from below). It won't solve every camping situation, but it should at least discourage people from waiting for the timer to run down.
Mall still should be reworked though if only that one it's seriously one of the worse maps in the game and again it's not just because of the camping problem, almost every player I know hates that map for the reasons stated above.
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Post by Noble » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:18 am

We're all in a run to help polishing our beloved game before its ultimate version comes, as I can see.
[Failman] wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:56 am
Mall still should be reworked though if only that one it's seriously one of the worse maps in the game and again it's not just because of the camping problem, almost every player I know hates that map for the reasons stated above.
I know a lot of people that think Mall is the best map, and it was one of the 3 preferred maps of 10 players, as you can see in the poll.

I've been playing from (or at least I live in) a different player source/base on a different region than many of the forum members (does not mean that it should be ignored just because they aren't contributing here, the reason is the language barrier), <- (Russia is also one of those countries, btw, and I think they only have NTN9 and Shock active in this forums). If I'm proud of my region for something, then that's because any servers in my wide country got an overall ping of 10-30 without a ping limit and I'm pretty sure they all are skillful and play the game to its fullest, and that may be why they don't complain much about this, they are always trying to overcome an wall and learn from losses (I've never seen them despising "low ladders tactics" for example, and it's a thing they know a lot well [I, too, don't think it's even 'op' anyways, people is making a storm in a teacup]). They complain, instead, about things like dives and dead/falling bodies interaction.

One may say that I'm only defending the devs on this, but that's my legit opinion and I can say the same about the players from my region. I disliked many competitive modes made by the community while I found many problems and holes on their structure, I didn't think they were fun at all or not as fun as the Officials. However, it should be a consensus that it is common to have something against the way a map is made, there are always reasons why different people like one or other stuff; and that applies for me and anyone else. While many can state the maps are flat, that they have camping spots or anything like this; it's way easier for me and for my friends to dislike a 'competitive' custom map attempt than the Officials. I think Hjarpe is meticulous and attentive, he does pay a lot of attention in gameplay details.

I would make a bigger post and refute many of those map design's complaints, but the talk is mostly focused on things like 'camping', and I think this discussion is regressive and nonsense. I'll do this, instead, when there are pictures illustrating exactly what are the actual problems in each map. Yeah, discussing about the melee itself is relevant, but it's not the subject here.

Anyways, it doesn't matter from where we are, I'm sure everyone is willing to play and adapt to whatever comes next in updates, and some to criticize and report stuff that, just like this, needs to be discussed.
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Post by mgtr14 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:31 pm

Noble wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:18 am
We're all in a run to help polishing our beloved game before its ultimate version comes, as I can see.
► Show Spoiler
I know a lot of people that think Mall is the best map, and it was one of the 3 preferred maps of 10 players, as you can see in the poll.

I've been playing from (or at least I live in) a different player source/base on a different region than many of the forum members (does not mean that it should be ignored just because they aren't contributing here, the reason is the language barrier), <- (Russia is also one of those countries, btw, and I think they only have NTN9 and Shock active in this forums). If I'm proud of my region for something, then that's because any servers in my wide country got an overall ping of 10-30 without a ping limit and I'm pretty sure they all are skillful and play the game to its fullest, and that may be why they don't complain much about this, they are always trying to overcome an wall and learn from losses (I've never seen them despising "low ladders tactics" for example, and it's a thing they know a lot well [I, too, don't think it's even 'op' anyways, people is making a storm in a teacup]). They complain, instead, about things like dives and dead/falling bodies interaction.
I play in Blurry's alot and I can also say that people there dislike melee tactics like abusing low ceilings, find it hard to properly approach defendable spots, and they also dislike grabs. Dives and body collision, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they thought that the maps were bad, because of how open the maps are, it leads to alot of people not even having a chance of survival sometimes. I would even say that they are one of the best players in the game, so I think that the devs should keep an eye on that server and see how we play, and from your server too then. There isn't much to learn from your losses because you can't do anything about it but be forced to play in a limiting way. Want to avoid abusive melee? Don't melee under low ceilings, so just leave those people alone. Don't want to risk dying when approaching? So don't approach and say put. I think that letting people approach in some way would make the game more dynamic, because now it is actually a good option to approach someone who is camping somewhere. If low ceilings didn't lead to combos that deal atleast 30 damage, then maybe more people would dare to fight there? I'm still sure you can redesign maps in a good way and even create more options for players and avoid stalemates, and temporarily fix annoying melee spots.

Noble wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:18 am
One may say that I'm only defending the devs on this, but that's my legit opinion and I can say the same about the players from my region. I disliked many competitive modes made by the community while I found many problems and holes on their structure, I didn't think they were fun at all or not as fun as the Officials. However, it should be a consensus that it is common to have something against the way a map is made, there are always reasons why different people like one or other stuff; and that applies for me and anyone else. While many can state the maps are flat, that they have camping spots or anything like this; it's way easier for me and for my friends to dislike a 'competitive' custom map attempt than the Officials. I think Hjarpe is meticulous and attentive, he does pay a lot of attention in gameplay details.
I haven't played the competitive versions of the maps, and I'm not so interested anyways. Of course people can and will dislike certain parts of any map. Hotel is still my favorite map despite its small flaws here and there, and Mall is my worst map for many reasons. I'm confident that everyone can agree that these map designs limit everyones options. If you can't approach so well, then you're going to stay put. Which is the smartest and safest decision. But what if you could still approach in a safe way? What if melee wasn't so exploited? This is not something that is just subjective, I really do believe that we can give players more options, something that the current maps don't do. It would lead to quicker gameplay, less stalemates, etc.
Noble wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:18 am
I would make a bigger post and refute many of those map design's complaints, but the talk is mostly focused on things like 'camping', and I think this discussion is regressive and nonsense.
I really can't see how you think this discussion is regressive and nonsensical, I'm pointing at the flaws our maps have and suggesting ways to improve them. Less stalemates, more options for players, less melee abuse.
Noble wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:18 am
I'll do this, instead, when there are pictures illustrating exactly what are the actual problems in each map. Yeah, discussing about the melee itself is relevant, but it's not the subject here.
I dont think I need pictures to show you how bad a spot can be. But here, I guess:
This spot in pistons https://imgur.com/a/E5irUaA, is hard to approach. If you're going from left to right, then you are going to face enemy fire and props dropping on you. Or you can try to run through the death traps and then get shot at, while risking getting kicked off and shot at again. Or the camper could take the other way and just leave.

This entire part of hazardous https://imgur.com/a/SK6OWb1, is hard to get through late in the game. A lack of cover and ways to go make it easy for the opponent to aim at you. If the big crate is shot down, you can atleast get to the middle but then you have to get out and risk getting shot.

https://imgur.com/a/3ZGwrW4 I don't have to explain.

https://imgur.com/a/COePjil If someone has to approach, it's going to take time. And when you get there, you can easily be kicked off. If you shoot at them, they could just dive down easily.

I could list many more examples, a spot just needs more entries. The thing about those spots is that it's hard to approach but easy to leave. If someone is there and you approach them eventually, they can just leave.

You either need very good guns and equipment, like a bazooka, grenades, grenade launcher, and a flamethrower.
Noble wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:18 am
Anyways, it doesn't matter from where we are, I'm sure everyone is willing to play and adapt to whatever comes next in updates, and some to criticize and report stuff that, just like this, needs to be discussed.
I played in a server that uses a script to disable grabs, it definetely improved melee IMO. We didn't have any fight ending combos, we could recover properly and it was more quick. So I just recorded some melee fights we decided to have. https://imgur.com/a/Q32Nlga

I'll admit that we still used the double hit move, but it was alot better anyways. This is why I'm somewhat against this "Just roll with it" thinking.
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