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By-design things that we don't like

Give us your input on how we may improve the game in future versions.
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Alexbra25
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By-design things that we don't like

Post by Alexbra25 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:17 am

Hello, I want to point out some stuff and hope this will get some discussion.
This is a topic where we can discuss things which are by design, but still annoy some players. Things that are intended by the devs, but could be improved or changed if they agree. Here we can discuss with them and share our point of view as players.

Make sure to suggest things to be added on the list and I'll add them, even though I might not agree.
Here's the current list of those things:
Legend:

:?: Not discussed yet;
:!: Not going to change;
:arrow: Subject to change in the next update.

Issues:

:?: Diving players under dynamic concrete/piano/trucks/hanging crates gibs them (I don't think it's by design, but currently the worst bug in the game). Like this example.

:?: Lifts gibbing you near walls (such as the lift/elevator on police station)

:?: Standing or rolling underneath hanging crates gibs you sometimes

:?: Walking over some objects (for example, dynamic concrete and wood counter) sometimes gib you when you're stepping on a small gap between them

:?: Items dropped stun you too easily. An example is when you grab someone mid-air, disarming them, and their weapon falls on your head, cancelling the grab.

:?: Bodies colliding too easily, even at small velocities, both players are knocked down. Here is how this can be stubborn, I've seem this a lot (even though may be not related, dead bodies seem to be a big problem).

:?: Burning barrels not exploding when they land softly

:?: Actions (such as picking up items, kicking or punching) are sometimes cancelled when walking on slightly bumpy terrain (the character floats in the air briefly)

:?: When a lift is inside an explosion radius, your character bounces off the lift and falls, even if you're not inside the radius.

:?: -Throwing weapons go through big crates/containers

:?: -Knife being the strongest melee weapon but also being one of the most common
Last edited by Alexbra25 on Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Vitamin E » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:02 am

Knife being the strongest melee weapon but also being one of the most common
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Post by KliPeH » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:39 am

Judging by the title I expected this to be some sort of re-evaluation of an SFD design theory the devs believe in but that's not the case. To me this looks like a compilation of Box2D engine quirks that aren't really "by design" but are in that section simply because they're bugs that cannot be fixed by any other regular means. None of those things are intended; you're not supposed to be instantly gibbed by walking over pieces of terrain or crouching under objects, nor should you be getting gibbed by trivial things like a dive into a crate or a piano. Those are "by design" because they're hard (impossible?) to be worked around, not necessarily because the devs feel they're working as they should be.

The corpses/items/barrels sometimes do not work properly because they had too much or not enough velocity at a given time. Again, I suppose those are mathematical equations that can be tweaked, but you're never going to have perfect results because the physics engine is tricky. Maybe the devs think that's as good as it can get so they continue working on other features instead. The legend is most likely incorrect, as most things marked "Not discussed yet" have already been brought up and explained many times in the past.
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Post by Hjarpe » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:42 am

@KliPeH: Couldn't have said it better myself. SFD's physics are a very ambitious undertaking for one programmer, and through no fault of Gurt's it's a bit janky at times. Considering how many different weird situations the physics have to deal with in SFD, it's amazing how well it works most of the time. But yeah, it will never be perfect.

"Knife being the strongest melee weapon but also being one of the most common" - that's an easy enough fix. I might lower the spawn rate a little for the next update. The other things you may change to the "(Probably) Not going to change" status.
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Post by Sree » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:21 pm

Alexbra25 wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:17 am
Lifts gibbing you near walls (such as the lift/elevator on police station)
This happens so frequently and it's so annoying. I think that the best and easiest solution to this is to simply displacing the lift in police station a little towards the left side of the map since i think this bug is only frequent in police station (at least among the official maps)
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Post by Rick Sanchez » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:23 pm

So the engine is so bad you cant even fix major bugs? hmm.
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Post by Noble » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:31 pm

I was under the impression that the problem with those issues is how dead/falling/dived bodies interact with objects. I mean, if you kick a big crate for some minutes it won't move much, but kicking a dead body there or diving a player can push it a lot. So, anyways, dead, falling and dived bodies are pretty much the same regarding the interaction with the game (falling in players, moving crates) and can be a subject to discussion, I suppose? I mean, the way dived players can push objects.

Burning barrels not exploding is considered a problem by some indeed, I'm very okay with that, but is this fixable by raising its sensibility (if that's possible).

At least, with what @Hjarpe and @KliPeH said in mind, that's a topic for unpopular game features, that can be worked on or not, I guess, and in my point of view it's very good to have them discussed. I've been hosting this brazilian SFD tourney and everyone seem to hate, despise and remove 'bug kills' matches (auto-gibs by dive etc), and I personally do not count them, since they will become YouTube videos and I want to get the best out of this game. :)

This is easily a problem that will be reported over and over again by the new Steam players, at some point this will have to be worked on in future, or nah? Also, if what I said in my first paragraph is right, that can be somehow changed, am I right?

Also, Dive'd underneath objects by Zyfex and Gurt's response is how this was an issue from back ago that is subject to a change in future.
Alexbra25 wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:17 am
(...) when you grab someone mid-air, disarming them, and their weapon falls on your head, cancelling the grab.
I think that's particularly much more important than the rest, since this was already reported by Splinter and nobody thought this was a problem. Like, if I'm in throw position with any item this will just cancel me getting grabbed? Is that supposed to be a tricky way to get out of them?

About the knifes, uh, I do have a fixed opinion about this and I do think knifes are overwhelmingly powerful, I will let everyone discuss about this tho.
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Post by Gurt » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:17 pm

First of all: Do not make compilation threads.
If you want to discuss things you think should change, share bug reports or give a suggestion make them into their own separate topics!

I usually don't answer compilation topics like this but this one can deserve some in-depth answer from the developers point of view - which can be interesting if you care (which many of you will not). Some things in this list are totally by design.

Let's dive in:

:?: Lifts gibbing you near walls (such as the lift/elevator on police station)
- By design. If you stand in the specific sweet spot where you're between the elevator and the wall you will get gibbed. This is not a bug! You don't have to like it (which the title imply you don't) but this should be its own separate topic if you want a discussion about possibly changes.

:?: Standing or rolling underneath hanging crates gibs you sometimes
- If you wedge yourself between a hanging crate and the ground - you will be the one supporting the hanging crate like a pillar. The engine will simply think it's time to gib you as you're between the hanging crate and the ground. The player, while crouching, will be a circle shape. This circle shape can't be bent or squeezed so the engine needs to make a decision when you should be gibbed or not, and if you're the one supporting any hanging crate off the ground like a pillar you will simple be gibbed. This can happen if you roll underneath hanging crates. While it looks strange it's by design-ish as we can't register how much a player is "squeezed" between two different objects so we have to go with the forces provided from the box2D engine.

:?: Walking over some objects (for example, dynamic concrete and wood counter) sometimes gib you when you're stepping on a small gap between them
- Never happened for us while testing by simple walking OVER objects. You probably mean something else or another situation. Report it as a bug with some screenshot or perhaps a custom map illustrating the problem.

:?: Items dropped stun you too easily. An example is when you grab someone mid-air, disarming them, and their weapon falls on your head, cancelling the grab.
- Dropped items can stun you but we have never seen it happen by grabbing someone disarming them. If anyone can share a gif over this it would be perfect because then we can see the exact circumstances and how you do it differently from us, and if that situation is a bug or not. This should be its own bug report.

:?: Bodies colliding too easily, even at small velocities, both players are knocked down. Here is how this can be stubborn, I've seem this a lot (even though may be not related, dead bodies seem to be a big problem).
- Dead bodies will knock you down at lower velocities and that's by design. However, you're showing a perfect example of a consequence that we haven't thought about and have not yet seen. This should definitively been its own bug report and some tweaks are in place to improve handling for overlapping players at the moment they are getting killed.

:?: Burning barrels not exploding when they land softly.
- Barrel wrecks (as we call them) only explodes when exposed to impacts (after a short period of time after spawning). Burning has nothing to do with it. If it land softly somewhere (on an elevator for example) it's totally fine. Just don't go an kick it! :)

:?: Actions (such as picking up items, kicking or punching) are sometimes cancelled when walking on slightly bumpy terrain (the character floats in the air briefly).
- Not sure what "slightly bumpy terrain" refers to but if you enter the falling state it will cancel other actions by default and this is by design. Perhaps you can illustrate the problem in a custom map.

:?: When a lift is inside an explosion radius, your character bounces off the lift and falls, even if you're not inside the radius.
- Every object in the explosion radius will get a force which affects you if you stand on said objects. Elevators don't fly away from the explosion due to them being stuck on a rail. This is a generic property for most box2D joints in SFD when it comes to explosions.

:?: -Throwing weapons go through big crates/containers
- All small objects, like debris and thrown weapons, can overlapped certain objects including containers. By design as of today. Duplicate of https://mythologicinteractiveforums.com ... ?f=21&t=48

:?: Diving players under dynamic concrete/piano/trucks/hanging crates gibs them (I don't think it's by design, but currently the worst bug in the game).
- Already reported multiple times, like here https://mythologicinteractiveforums.com ... =21&t=1325 and https://mythologicinteractiveforums.com ... f=21&t=182.
- This one is a bit special: Starting with the game 6+ years ago we made the dive work well in a static environment. Since then we have added both dynamic platforms and dynamic objects that can gib you. Diving with a player can place the player between very tight spots you normally can't reach which can gib you. Nothing we ever thought about when we started with the game and the diving mechanic - so it has been patched on afterwards.

Some other problems with the diving includes if you catch a player and dive into any hanging platforms, like the one on Heavy Equipment, you will start to bounce and you can do it multiple times.

To put it simple: This is a side effect how the dive is coded (6+ years ago!) while not being compatible with how the box2D engine resolves overlap - that's why all these bugs happen. The only way to fix all these problems is to rewrite how the diving works to work with all kind of dynamic objects in mind - which can take 10 to 20 days of coding in our spare time (with the risk of introducing new bugs to the dive) - time we can spend on much more important things as we think the dive works good enough right now. We want to improve the dive but that will be in some future post-release update instead if we think it's still worth the time in the future.
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