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Grab nerf

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Re: Grab nerf

Post by Hjarpe » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:40 am

Let's not call each other names, I'm sure we can discuss this in a civil manner.

I highly doubt that the grab makes melee fights last longer. It might incentivize running for some players, but it might do the opposite for others. Overall, I think it does the intended thing by incentivizing offensive actions over blocking/waiting.

I just want the critics of the grab to consider, do you think it's "unfair" because you don't use it yourself? As I often say, SFD is a level playing field, everyone can grab. Maybe it's because you are not using this feature because you find it "cheap" that you keep getting caught and frustrated by grabs.

As someone who uses every tool in the melee toolbox - punches, kicks, weapon throws, makeshift weapons, grabs and dives - I find the melee a lot more fun and varied than in previous versions. I don't find myself relying on any one tool too much. And, more to the point, the players that reliably kick my ass are also using all the tools. If I were to play without using grabs, I imagine it would be incredibly frustrating. But if that's what you're doing, you have to recognize that you are playing with a self-imposed handicap.

I'm not saying the system is perfect, and I get frustrated sometimes too - but not so much by the grab, because if I get caught I always feel like it's my own fault.

Another point, I often hear that the grab hitbox is "bad", but I don't remember seeing an explanation of how it's bad. I could just not have been paying full attention, sorry of that's the case. Is it too high, too wide, or what? I only ask because it seems all right to me. If you could provide a video of a "bullshit, that shouldn't have grabbed me" situation (that can't be attributed to lag), we might take this more seriously.
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Post by mgtr14 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:05 pm

Hjarpe wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:40 am
Let's not call each other names, I'm sure we can discuss this in a civil manner.

I highly doubt that the grab makes melee fights last longer. It might incentivize running for some players, but it might do the opposite for others. Overall, I think it does the intended thing by incentivizing offensive actions over blocking/waiting.

I just want the critics of the grab to consider, do you think it's "unfair" because you don't use it yourself? As I often say, SFD is a level playing field, everyone can grab. Maybe it's because you are not using this feature because you find it "cheap" that you keep getting caught and frustrated by grabs.

As someone who uses every tool in the melee toolbox - punches, kicks, weapon throws, makeshift weapons, grabs and dives - I find the melee a lot more fun and varied than in previous versions. I don't find myself relying on any one tool too much. And, more to the point, the players that reliably kick my ass are also using all the tools. If I were to play without using grabs, I imagine it would be incredibly frustrating. But if that's what you're doing, you have to recognize that you are playing with a self-imposed handicap.

I'm not saying the system is perfect, and I get frustrated sometimes too - but not so much by the grab, because if I get caught I always feel like it's my own fault.

Another point, I often hear that the grab hitbox is "bad", but I don't remember seeing an explanation of how it's bad. I could just not have been paying full attention, sorry of that's the case. Is it too high, too wide, or what? I only ask because it seems all right to me. If you could provide a video of a "bullshit, that shouldn't have grabbed me" situation (that can't be attributed to lag), we might take this more seriously.
While I do know that anyone can grab anyone, I still don't think that it's truly a move that you could just use yourself in return , as I've said, some people run away after grabbing you, or they've just thrown you away, etc, and don't give you a chance to do anything back. And maybe you would do the same so you wouldn't give your opponent a chance.

Ironically, every time in a server, I'm usually the one who uses grabs the most. The grab hitbox is huge, but i cant give footage ATM. You can catch someone behind you, even a bit over you, too. Making it a lot harder to dodge a grab, as most people think is possible. You can even grab someone who is on the other edge of some props.

Also, I don't miss out on a chance to grab. I use it as much as possible, I usually combo into grabs. All I need is a prop to drop kick down from, or a tight space to dive into, etc. I still don't understand why you would need to give us a move to encourage more offensive play , why wouldn't you try to hit your opponent, instead of blocking all the time and even delaying the game for yourself? People were aggressive enough before without grabs.
I don't agree that melee is more varied now, in terms of moves, sure. But we used to move around a lot before, there isn't much reason to kick your opponent off if you only deal 3 and a little knockback that can be blocked, and then usually kneel. So there isn't much reason to jump around and use the environment to kick your opponent off, or look for good combos other than kicking into a grab. Before, we needed to land multiple hits to deal a lot of damage in a good time, now grabs usually do that for you. That's why I think that the grab really lowered the skill ceiling. Now we just throw anything and then grab, or just bait out a block. As I've also mentioned, there were some players that were litteraly in another dimension with what we had before, no bugs or anything. Good movement, timing, combos, etc.

Also, a lot of people still try to lead into a grab, and it can be done without much effort, when you keep talking about how new players have a chance now, we're pretty much grabbing them as much as possible, and they usually can't do anything about it.
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Post by Hjarpe » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:53 pm

This is largely in response to @mgtr14's post, but also some other points that have been made. I'm trying to be methodical and not avoid any points, but there sure are a lot of 'em! If you think I'm missing or ignoring some vital point, let me know...

First off, I disagree that melee was aggressive and fast enough before grabs. Whatever complexities were going on under the hood, melee fights looked terribly static and boring and dragged on for too long. The grab is a high risk, high reward attack that, even if it's not the most elegant solution in the world, at least makes things more dynamic, fast and unpredictable.

I think the damage output of the grab-punch can only be considered high in the context of unarmed combat. When you have a melee weapons, the relative damage of the grab-punch isn't that high. The high damage value wasn't chosen arbitrarily: we wanted the grab to be useful at all times, so that grabs wouldn't go out the window just because you found a katana.

I disagree that the dodge is hard to dodge or avoid. How easy something is to avoid is of course impossible to quantify, so no one's gonna win that argument. My argument will have to boil down to "I personally feel that the grab is appropriately dangerous".

I'll disagree about the hitbox until I see some hard evidence, since I've never had a problem with it.

Maybe some depth and skill-ceiling-altitude has been lost by the addition of grabs, but what was lost there was never an intended feature. The specific meta game of one-on-one melee duels was just something that emerged and players adapted to. Whether losing that particular balance was good or bad is of course totally subjective, and I don't think we're gonna get anywhere convincing each other about that.

I think the jump-kick-and-grab combo falls on the "skill move" side, not the "exploit" side. It's situational enough, and avoidable enough if you know to expect it. I don't see a big problem here.
mgtr14 wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:05 pm
Also, a lot of people still try to lead into a grab, and it can be done without much effort, when you keep talking about how new players have a chance now, we're pretty much grabbing them as much as possible, and they usually can't do anything about it.
This might be a big accessibility problem, but I haven't heard this complaint from any new players, so it's hard to tell if it's true. I'd like to get more perspectives on this point.
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Post by Splinter » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:02 pm

About the hitbox, the grab sometimes can feel like the guy has magnets on his hand:

Image

Maybe the grabs shouldn't connect in this situation, but from a balance perspective, it would make players "exploit" even more the strategy of jumping on top of objects to try doing combos, as that would make them invulnerable to grabs.

The melee without grabs has plenty of little tricks, but I wouldn't say that melee already had diversity. People would just do the same thing over and over: punch, roll, jump and punch, then they would try to grab a ladder to avoid the kneel and drop down, punching again. Or they would just punch, run to the enemy's back, punch, repeat.

Hjarpe talked about one-on-one melee duels. We all have to keep in mind that this game has many types of gameplay. Free for all, 1v1, teams, humans vs. bots. Some features might seem inappropriate in 1v1 scenarios but good in all other scenarios. For example, how you can't get stunlocked forever. At some point, you are able to move, which is good for survival and team matches. Besides the types of gameplays, there are of course different ways to kill an enemy, not only melee. There are guns, throwing weapons, hazards in the environment. The grab-throw might not be good for melee 1v1 but it's a good tool for players to use the environment around them.

And of course... there are different maps, where the gameplay is completely different. Sometimes I join a "Melee Island" server, a map where you basically die if you get dived or grabbed. People play there with snipers, but sometimes I grab players and throw them in the water. Then... they complain that grabs are cheap...? Why not just edit the map and remove the water, if you just want to use snipers?

Now, mgtr14 made a good point about new player's impressions. From their perspective, it must be upsetting to join a server full of old timers, play for 5 seconds, then wait 2 minutes before the round ends. Hopefully this won't be a problem in the full version, because there will be story mode. New Players will probably want to play a bit on their own first, before diving into the chaotic online versus battles.
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Post by mgtr14 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:49 pm

Hjarpe wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:53 pm
This is largely in response to mgtr14's post, but also some other points that have been made. I'm trying to be methodical and not avoid any points, but there sure are a lot of 'em! If you think I'm missing or ignoring some vital point, let me know...

First off, I disagree that melee was aggressive and fast enough before grabs. Whatever complexities were going on under the hood, melee fights looked terribly static and boring and dragged on for too long. The grab is a high risk, high reward attack that, even if it's not the most elegant solution in the world, at least makes things more dynamic, fast and unpredictable.
Splinter wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:02 pm
The melee without grabs has plenty of little tricks, but I wouldn't say that melee already had diversity. People would just do the same thing over and over: punch, roll, jump and punch, then they would try to grab a ladder to avoid the kneel and drop down, punching again. Or they would just punch, run to the enemy's back, punch, repeat.
Sadly, I couldn't find any footage, but melee was never static if you would learn some more tricks and moves, I even figured out how you could do a "late uppercut", double hit, combos, etc. You would need to use the environment of course, but you still do, even with grabs. Grabs are kind of static anyways, it's just that you move from place to place if you grab/get grabbed.

I do agree that move-wise, melee was pretty "not diverse", but it was still alot of fun. That's really all that mattered honestly, and it worked, too. Again, some people were truly good in our previous melee system (Specifically the russians), making use of mobility to it's full extent. It looked crazy, and it was alot of fun to fight them, even if you lost.
Hjarpe wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:53 pm
I think the damage output of the grab-punch can only be considered high in the context of unarmed combat. When you have a melee weapons, the relative damage of the grab-punch isn't that high. The high damage value wasn't chosen arbitrarily: we wanted the grab to be useful at all times, so that grabs wouldn't go out the window just because you found a katana.
You have to take combos into consideration, that's when it becomes a big problem.
As I've said before, you could deal 36 damage with fists, all of that is a long unbreakable combo. All you would need for the first 3 hits (Punch,kick,grab) is high ground to drop down from to avoid kneeling after the drop punch. That alone would be 28 damage. And after grab punching your opponent, you can always follow up with a dive. If it's against a wall, you can punch them again after tackling them into the wall. Or it can also be fall damage.

The thing is, grab damage is guaranteed and can be followed up with at the end of any combo. That's plus 17 damage on any combo. The first combo was already bad enough, with almost a third of your HP gone from a simple combo. Imagine if you had a weapon, or even a katana. 15 + 3 + 17 for the first 3 hits, that's 36 damage. 41 if you land another swing thereafter using walls if you can. (We only have 100 HP)

It's good that you took other things into consideration, but combos was definetely something you overlooked. I think that if grab damage was 10, people would still use it, because it can add some extra damage to any combo. +17 at the end of any combo is way too much IMO.
Hjarpe wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:53 pm
I disagree that the dodge is hard to dodge or avoid. How easy something is to avoid is of course impossible to quantify, so no one's gonna win that argument. My argument will have to boil down to "I personally feel that the grab is appropriately dangerous".
Say if you're in a melee fight with someone, and you block, anticipating another punch. But then they grab you instead. So just assuming that you could somehow see the grab coming, then you would have to react, cancel your block with a roll and then jump (roll and jump speed is slower than the speed of someone who is grabbing). If you just see some stray grabber, they're easy to dodge, obviously. But alot of people here just think that you can dodge a grab because "you can see it coming".
Hjarpe wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:53 pm
I'll disagree about the hitbox until I see some hard evidence, since I've never had a problem with it.
Image
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Splinter wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:02 pm
Hjarpe talked about one-on-one melee duels. We all have to keep in mind that this game has many types of gameplay. Free for all, 1v1, teams, humans vs. bots. Some features might seem inappropriate in 1v1 scenarios but good in all other scenarios. For example, how you can't get stunlocked forever. At some point, you are able to move, which is good for survival and team matches. Besides the types of gameplays, there are of course different ways to kill an enemy, not only melee. There are guns, throwing weapons, hazards in the environment. The grab-throw might not be good for melee 1v1 but it's a good tool for players to use the environment around them.

And of course... there are different maps, where the gameplay is completely different. Sometimes I join a "Melee Island" server, a map where you basically die if you get dived or grabbed. People play there with snipers, but sometimes I grab players and throw them in the water. Then... they complain that grabs are cheap...? Why not just edit the map and remove the water, if you just want to use snipers?
Hjarpe wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:53 pm
Maybe some depth and skill-ceiling-altitude has been lost by the addition of grabs, but what was lost there was never an intended feature. The specific meta game of one-on-one melee duels was just something that emerged and players adapted to. Whether losing that particular balance was good or bad is of course totally subjective, and I don't think we're gonna get anywhere convincing each other about that.
It's not just in "one-on-one melee", it's all of melee. People even say that you just shouldn't stand near edges and melee because of grabs, and while that is true and should be accounted for, it still shows how powerful grabs are. If a move is just going to make you afraid of having a melee fight near an edge, or maybe even get into a melee fight itself, it's certainly powerful. It's also that the grab is so "on-demand", and still feels out of place for our current melee system.

As for what splinter said, it is true. There are obviously other things to consider. One on one duels at the end of a match, or in the middle of a fire fight, or between multiple people, and everything else, + environment. Grabs are more powerful sometimes, and sometimes it's better to punch instead of throwing. And even then, I still think that grabs are pretty OP. And anywhere with melee, I still think that grabs are out of place for our melee system.
Hjarpe wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:53 pm
I think the jump-kick-and-grab combo falls on the "skill move" side, not the "exploit" side. It's situational enough, and avoidable enough if you know to expect it. I don't see a big problem here.
There is another variation of those kind of combos. Stand on higher ground, kick your opponent. If he blocks, he's still gonna get staggered, so just follow up with a drop punch and grab him thereafter. So if you wanna avoid that, either take the kick and hope that the drop punch misses, and then that you punch in time, or try to "walk with the kick", as in walk in the direction of the kick so that it sends you too far away for your enemy. (Never actually done this, but some people have accidentaly done it).

And even if it's "skillfull" (It really isn't anymore), it's still a problem. Not really situational, you just need a higher ground, like a prop or a desk to drop down from, and then just do all of those moves in order for way too much damage. Avoidable? Sometimes.
Splinter wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:02 pm
Now, mgtr14 made a good point about new player's impressions. From their perspective, it must be upsetting to join a server full of old timers, play for 5 seconds, then wait 2 minutes before the round ends. Hopefully this won't be a problem in the full version, because there will be story mode. New Players will probably want to play a bit on their own first, before diving into the chaotic online versus battles.
Hjarpe wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:53 pm
mgtr14 wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:05 pm
Also, a lot of people still try to lead into a grab, and it can be done without much effort, when you keep talking about how new players have a chance now, we're pretty much grabbing them as much as possible, and they usually can't do anything about it.
This might be a big accessibility problem, but I haven't heard this complaint from any new players, so it's hard to tell if it's true. I'd like to get more perspectives on this point.
Sadly, any "real new player" doesn't go on the forums like that. But I can atleast say this, you think that stunlocking before was a problem against new players (And only new players, mind you), and now we can still do that with grabs. It definetely is still hard for new players, and that's just how it is, and should be. It would really be a pain in the ass if you tried to give new players a chance to win trough luck. All you need is to properly explain how the game works and what can be done, because the tutorial doesn't even cover drop kicking from high ground.





Also, we haven't really covered throws, but that's the real fight ender. Just discarding your opponent into any pit is pretty powerful already, without needing to land some right kicks for it. And consider this, the "edge" to any pit can be pretty big, if you combo into a grab. If you kick your opponent over twice and then grab and throw him off, you can consider that entire distance covered "the edge" in my opinion. Which is alot bigger now if you can just combo into grabs.
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Post by Gurt » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:31 pm

Image
That is by design! That gif shows the farthest away you can grab another player. We want you to be able to grab players standing on any chest-high objects (including, but not limited to: tables, barrels, crates, desks) and we want you to be able to grab opponents slightly above you in staircases.

Grab damage is not guaranteed unless you actually grab your opponent. Chaining combos is not as easy as just standing still and mashing the attack - you need to use the height difference of objects, move around, jump around and timing your attacks/kicks/grabs. We are OK with this and want players to do this kind of combos dishing out damage. Recovery rolling is a tool to quickly get moving if your opponent kicks you around, potentially making you escape. We want the recovery roll to be a tool that you can use to start moving when you have been downed to the floor. But as mentioned it might not always work depending on the situation and can result in you being kicked multiple times and then grabbed which might be a bit silly and covers a lot of distance. So we have decided to test out a few changes to the recovery roll mechanic to make it possible and more reliable to possibly escape "unavoidable" melee chain combos of 40+ damage and avoid being kicked two or three times in a row (and grabbed). We will see what works and what doesn't.

Our intention for the full version is to offer offline play against bots by playing campaigns if you prefer that. New players won't be forced to play online being beaten multiple times before figuring out how to even use a weapon. The tutorial will cover the basics like how to move, attack, disarm, use weapons and other basic moves. It's up the the players to figure out and learn the high end gameplay and how to use all the tools available depending on the situation (whether it being in the campaigns or online games).
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Post by Splinter » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:28 pm

@Gurt (first time using mentions, yay)

I hope you guys don't remove combos completely, because I like them too, but I'm curious about what kind of changes to the recovery roll you'll be testing.

After a lot of discussion, it seems like the community can't make up their mind about what to change in grabs, or even if it should be changed at all. We aren't all agreeing with any changes suggested so far, which goes to show that the current grabs work pretty well. I'm not saying this to put an end the discussion, but it seems that the development of the game is going pretty well and things are improving, let's be patient.
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Post by RickAvory » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:57 pm

I suggestion for the grab that i have been trying to get attention from the community for a while. I was thinking maybe a way to counter a grab while suspended in the air. Maybe if u spam the left and right arrow keys a certain amount of times. Or maybe if u press the a button at the perfect time u can punch them while in mid air.
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Post by mgtr14 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:25 pm

Gurt wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:31 pm
Image
That is by design! That gif shows the farthest away you can grab another player. We want you to be able to grab players standing on any chest-high objects (including, but not limited to: tables, barrels, crates, desks) and we want you to be able to grab opponents slightly above you in staircases.

Grab damage is not guaranteed unless you actually grab your opponent. Chaining combos is not as easy as just standing still and mashing the attack - you need to use the height difference of objects, move around, jump around and timing your attacks/kicks/grabs. We are OK with this and want players to do this kind of combos dishing out damage. Recovery rolling is a tool to quickly get moving if your opponent kicks you around, potentially making you escape. We want the recovery roll to be a tool that you can use to start moving when you have been downed to the floor. But as mentioned it might not always work depending on the situation and can result in you being kicked multiple times and then grabbed which might be a bit silly and covers a lot of distance. So we have decided to test out a few changes to the recovery roll mechanic to make it possible and more reliable to possibly escape "unavoidable" melee chain combos of 40+ damage and avoid being kicked two or three times in a row (and grabbed). We will see what works and what doesn't.

Our intention for the full version is to offer offline play against bots by playing campaigns if you prefer that. New players won't be forced to play online being beaten multiple times before figuring out how to even use a weapon. The tutorial will cover the basics like how to move, attack, disarm, use weapons and other basic moves. It's up the the players to figure out and learn the high end gameplay and how to use all the tools available depending on the situation (whether it being in the campaigns or online games).
It's good that the grab can still reach people who are standing on something, but I still think that it may need some "fine tuning", especially on how it can grab people like this sometimes:
Image
The gif may be a bit quick, but you should see what's happening. IMO, I think that you shouldn't be grabbed here, what do you think?

As for the grabs being guaranteed, they pretty much are as soon as the combo starts. Combos are easy, by the way. It may just be so that I got too used to them, but anyone could learn within some time. But I really don't see how you thought that melee was static before if you knew about combos.
Again, I think those combos deal too much damage, it's the grab at the end that does the extra for you, I think that grab damage would still be good at 10, since that's +10 damage at any combo. And even more than fists and weaker melee weapons. Sure that people wouldn't break blocks with grabs if they had a katana, but they would still definetely use it at the end of combos. So I think that a grab punch DMG nerf isn't so bad, just so that we can't take away so much HP with a simple combo. 8 + 3 + 10, just 21 damage instead of 29. you'd still rather deal 21 damage instead of 11, right? Also, now that I think about it, a katana would always be used at the end instead of the grab. But there's also the durability to think about. Honestly, it would atleast be nice if we could discuss the grab punch damage further, since I think it could still use some tweaks.

Again, for new players, they should figure it out themselves. I don't think it would be so hard to make the melee tutorial better, these tricks aren't so hard at all.
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Post by Gurt » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:44 pm

After some internal discussions and tests we have decided to do the following fine tuning:
  • You can only grab someone standing in front of you based on your X-position and facing direction. You can no longer grab someone standing slightly behind you.
  • Your grab hitbox while jumping no longer cover your legs - making it easier to jump over someone grabbing.
  • You can perform a recovery roll after landing from small heights and taking minimal fall damage after being hit by kicks, jump kicks or knockdowns from explosions or objects causing you to fall.
  • You can not recovery roll after being dived, being hit by a jump attack and being hit by the third melee attack (full melee combo) or being hit by a melee attack while you're in the air.
  • You're immune against melee attacks while recovery rolling away from your opponent (does not work if you roll into an object or into a corner). This makes it harder to perform multiple kicks + grabs (or other melee combos). You can still be hit by thrown items and you can still be cornered and surrounded so it's not a guaranteed success of escape depending on the environment and your opponents equipment. Your opponent may also decide to sprint to catch up with your recovery roll and follow up with more punches so you may not always want to recover roll depending on the environment.
These small adjustments can help you escape from unavoidable melee combos (depending on the environment) and make the grab harder to perform together with melee combos.
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Post by mgtr14 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:45 pm

Gurt wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:44 pm
After some internal discussions and tests we have decided to do the following fine tuning:
  • You can only grab someone standing in front of you based on your X-position and facing direction. You can no longer grab someone standing slightly behind you.
  • Your grab hitbox while jumping no longer cover your legs - making it easier to jump over someone grabbing.
  • You can recovery roll even from small heights/minimal fall damage. Being kicked down from a crate or two will allow you to recover roll.
  • You're immune against melee attacks while recovery rolling away from your opponent (does not work if you roll into an object or into a corner). This makes it harder to perform multiple kicks + grabs (or other melee combos). You can still be hit by thrown items and you can still be cornered and surrounded so it's not a guaranteed success of escape depending on the environment and your opponents equipment.
These small adjustments can help you escape from unavoidable melee combos (depending on the environment) and make the grab harder to perform together with melee combos.
I'm completely fine with the first 2, they seem to be completely fair to me.

But, I still feel like you may be going against the wrong thing here. I was talking about how grab punch damage adds up to alot with combos, and you went against combos only with a change that could shake up melee alot. This is still worth a try I guess, but be prepared for alot of complaints against melee immunity while rolling away.
Still, I think that only the grab punch deserves a nerf, not combos itself. And what about grab throws? They're still gonna be around alot.
So, I really think that this recovery roll buff is going to be really risky, and it wasn't really what needed to change.

Anyways, these changes will definetely change melee alot. You should be ready for any complaints or new tricks we figure out :p
Last edited by mgtr14 on Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Rick Sanchez » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:04 pm

Gurt wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:44 pm
After some internal discussions and tests we have decided to do the following fine tuning:
  • You can only grab someone standing in front of you based on your X-position and facing direction. You can no longer grab someone standing slightly behind you.
  • Your grab hitbox while jumping no longer cover your legs - making it easier to jump over someone grabbing.
  • You can recovery roll even from small heights/minimal fall damage. Being kicked down from a crate or two will allow you to recover roll.
  • You're immune against melee attacks while recovery rolling away from your opponent (does not work if you roll into an object or into a corner). This makes it harder to perform multiple kicks + grabs (or other melee combos). You can still be hit by thrown items and you can still be cornered and surrounded so it's not a guaranteed success of escape depending on the environment and your opponents equipment.
These small adjustments can help you escape from unavoidable melee combos (depending on the environment) and make the grab harder to perform together with melee combos.
Yeah thats a bad idea. Having the ability to just magically evade every attack after getting knocked down by a player is not really what we wished for. Sure it gets rid of the grab attack possibility but id rather have that than have nothing and not being able to do other combos.
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Post by Sree » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:38 pm

I agree with Rick and mgtr14. These combos have been in sfd for years (even before grabs were thing) and they are what made SFD so dynamic. knocking down a player from crate not only makes him vulnerable to grabs, but also shotguns and other guns for a few seconds. If one can just recovery roll immediately after getting kicked from a crate, He can just do the recovery roll towards the enemy and attack him instantly, this would remove a large part of kick's usage and would affect gameplay a lot than just the grabs.
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Post by Hjarpe » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:52 pm

mgtr14 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:45 pm
Still, I think that only the grab punch deserves a nerf, not combos itself. And what about grab throws? They're still gonna be around alot.
So, I really think that this recovery roll buff is going to be really risky, and it wasn't really what needed to change.

Anyways, these changes will definetely change melee alot. You should be ready for any complaints or new tricks we figure out :p
We don't want to change the grab punch damage or remove the grab throw, and the reasons have already been stated. :roll:

The thing we were trying to address here was the vast distance you can move someone using combos. That can lead to an "unavoidable" death if someone moves you (while stunlocked) to a pit or something. So we thought we should give players a way to get out of the stunlock.
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Post by mgtr14 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:23 pm

Hjarpe wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:52 pm
mgtr14 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:45 pm
Still, I think that only the grab punch deserves a nerf, not combos itself. And what about grab throws? They're still gonna be around alot.
So, I really think that this recovery roll buff is going to be really risky, and it wasn't really what needed to change.

Anyways, these changes will definetely change melee alot. You should be ready for any complaints or new tricks we figure out :p
We don't want to change the grab punch damage or remove the grab throw, and the reasons have already been stated. :roll:

The thing we were trying to address here was the vast distance you can move someone using combos. That can lead to an "unavoidable" death if someone moves you (while stunlocked) to a pit or something. So we thought we should give players a way to get out of the stunlock.
I think there may be better ways to do so.
It looks like you're making the roll immune to any sort of melee attack because grabs can catch up to someone who is rolling, I think that the right thing to do here would be to make the grab just not move so far/fast. It was a bit weird how far it went for just being a "grab move" anyways. A move that would completely ignore melee attacks would already be pretty powerful in other situations, imagine a gunner making good use of it and being able to not take the damage of a combo while rolling around and standing up with the gun ready. That already sounds like a pain in the ass to me, this recovery roll buff is going to give everyone an easy way out of deserved damage.

And if you're not making the recovery rolls immune due to that reason, then why? That change will affect the game alot, not only melee.
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Post by Gurt » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:51 pm

Recovery roll efter att ha blivit divad? Känns lite strange.
mgtr14 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:23 pm
► Show Spoiler
I think there may be better ways to do so.
It looks like you're making the roll immune to any sort of melee attack because grabs can catch up to someone who is rolling, I think that the right thing to do here would be to make the grab just not move so far/fast. It was a bit weird how far it went for just being a "grab move" anyways. A move that would completely ignore melee attacks would already be pretty powerful in other situations, imagine a gunner making good use of it and being able to not take the damage of a combo while rolling around and standing up with the gun ready. That already sounds like a pain in the ass to me, this recovery roll buff is going to give everyone an easy way out of deserved damage.

And if you're not making the recovery rolls immune due to that reason, then why? That change will affect the game alot, not only melee.
Don't panic.

Recovery roll is a mechanic that you can do only after being knocked down from kicks while still laying on the ground (clarified this by editing my last post). An ordinary roll will not make you immune against melee attacks. Rolling is slightly quicker to perform than a grab and they both cover the same distance - if anything the grab is slower overall.

What you can't do anymore is to perform a melee stunlock using kicks from objects + dropkicks running down from objects + grab + throw while your opponent is laying down on the ground (unable to recovery roll). This covered huge distances (similar to 2 grab throws or slightly more) and made the grab a bit silly in this combination and made (seemingly) far away pits really dangerous.

Note that you can sprint to catch up with someone recovery rolling away from you (after being knocked down by a kick) to keep the melee fight ongoing (recovery roll is not a free escape move unless you let it be). But now your opponent have a second chance to counter you - either by blocking, attacking or doing something else when the recovery roll is over. Time your move right and you can keep up the melee combo. Having any melee weapon to extend your melee range will help as you don't need to sprint as far to catch up. If you're successful you can keep the melee combo going and pushing the opponent closer to any pit behind him/her if you wish.

Overall the common player might not notice any difference except that you now can recover roll after being kicked. If you have kicks in your melee combo pattern you will have to incorporate sprinting to catch up with potential recovery rolling opponents.

In short these changes will affect a subset of the melee when it comes to kicking around your opponent as it allows your opponent to recovery roll - opening up for more counter play and to prevent stunlocks - which in turn prevents stunlocking your opponent and grab-throwing him/her over a far away pit.
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Post by Rick Sanchez » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:16 pm

Gurt wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:51 pm
Recovery roll efter att ha blivit divad? Känns lite strange.
mgtr14 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:23 pm
► Show Spoiler
I think there may be better ways to do so.
It looks like you're making the roll immune to any sort of melee attack because grabs can catch up to someone who is rolling, I think that the right thing to do here would be to make the grab just not move so far/fast. It was a bit weird how far it went for just being a "grab move" anyways. A move that would completely ignore melee attacks would already be pretty powerful in other situations, imagine a gunner making good use of it and being able to not take the damage of a combo while rolling around and standing up with the gun ready. That already sounds like a pain in the ass to me, this recovery roll buff is going to give everyone an easy way out of deserved damage.

And if you're not making the recovery rolls immune due to that reason, then why? That change will affect the game alot, not only melee.
Don't panic.

Recovery roll is a mechanic that you can do only after being knocked down from kicks while still laying on the ground (clarified this by editing my last post). An ordinary roll will not make you immune against melee attacks. Rolling is slightly quicker to perform than a grab and they both cover the same distance - if anything the grab is slower overall.

What you can't do anymore is to perform a melee stunlock using kicks from objects + dropkicks running down from objects + grab + throw while your opponent is laying down on the ground (unable to recovery roll). This covered huge distances (similar to 2 grab throws or slightly more) and made the grab a bit silly in this combination and made (seemingly) far away pits really dangerous.

Note that you can sprint to catch up with someone recovery rolling away from you (after being knocked down by a kick) to keep the melee fight ongoing (recovery roll is not a free escape move unless you let it be). But now your opponent have a second chance to counter you - either by blocking, attacking or doing something else when the recovery roll is over. Time your move right and you can keep up the melee combo. Having any melee weapon to extend your melee range will help as you don't need to sprint as far to catch up. If you're successful you can keep the melee combo going and pushing the opponent closer to any pit behind him/her if you wish.

Overall the common player might not notice any difference except that you now can recover roll after being kicked. If you have kicks in your melee combo pattern you will have to incorporate sprinting to catch up with potential recovery rolling opponents.

In short these changes will affect a subset of the melee when it comes to kicking around your opponent as it allows your opponent to recovery roll - opening up for more counter play and to prevent stunlocks - which in turn prevents stunlocking your opponent and grab-throwing him/her over a far away pit.
Wait so you cant recovery roll if you get knocked down With kick while standing, but you can when you are already knocked down and get kicked?
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Post by mgtr14 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:28 pm

Gurt wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:51 pm
Recovery roll efter att ha blivit divad? Känns lite strange.
Eller hur?
Gurt wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:51 pm
► Show Spoiler
Don't panic.

Recovery roll is a mechanic that you can do only after being knocked down from kicks while still laying on the ground (clarified this by editing my last post). An ordinary roll will not make you immune against melee attacks. Rolling is slightly quicker to perform than a grab and they both cover the same distance - if anything the grab is slower overall.

What you can't do anymore is to perform a melee stunlock using kicks from objects + dropkicks running down from objects + grab + throw while your opponent is laying down on the ground (unable to recovery roll). This covered huge distances (similar to 2 grab throws or slightly more) and made the grab a bit silly in this combination and made (seemingly) far away pits really dangerous.

Note that you can sprint to catch up with someone recovery rolling away from you (after being knocked down by a kick) to keep the melee fight ongoing (recovery roll is not a free escape move unless you let it be). But now your opponent have a second chance to counter you - either by blocking, attacking or doing something else when the recovery roll is over. Time your move right and you can keep up the melee combo. Having any melee weapon to extend your melee range will help as you don't need to sprint as far to catch up. If you're successful you can keep the melee combo going and pushing the opponent closer to any pit behind him/her if you wish.

Overall the common player might not notice any difference except that you now can recover roll after being kicked. If you have kicks in your melee combo pattern you will have to incorporate sprinting to catch up with potential recovery rolling opponents.

In short these changes will affect a subset of the melee when it comes to kicking around your opponent as it allows your opponent to recovery roll - opening up for more counter play and to prevent stunlocks - which in turn prevents stunlocking your opponent and grab-throwing him/her over a far away pit.
That should be an alright change then, but maybe the recovery roll distance should be changed? I think it would be more "melee range" if the person just did a short roll to just get on their feet. So it wouldn't be as long as a normal roll with melee immunity.
I have a hard time imagining how this could affect melee, maybe some people wouldn't dare to really kick their opponent like that since they get a big chance to just roll out thereafter? What about stamina, Maybe you won't have enough stamina to run up to your opponent if they're rolling away? You should still know that there still isn't really a reason to melee, and now it may be easier to get out of a fight. Anyways, same thing as I've said before, be prepared for any new trick or meta in melee or maybe even the entire game, recovery roll could maybe get big after this.
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Post by Gurt » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:35 pm

mgtr14 wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:28 pm
Gurt wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:51 pm
Recovery roll efter att ha blivit divad? Känns lite strange.
Eller hur?
That's one of my internal notes (kept in a textfile full of "svengelska") for development purposes. What is it doing here? :lol: Must have been in my clipboard :roll: . To answer myself (and anyone reading that cryptic note): Nope - you can't recovery roll after being knocked downed by a dive.
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Post by Minion222 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:56 am

Grab yes, the horror i expirianced after i came back from pre-alpha to beta it was just annoying, personaly my idea would be the ability to "struggle" it would add the possibility of changing the sides of battles it would work like this: you press a key while grabbed (preferebly attack) you shorten the time of the grab and if you manage to get out like that you knock back the opponent, this wouldn't work if your HP is under 10% maybe as you're too weak to struggle.
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