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Grab nerf

Give us your input on how we may improve the game in future versions.
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Rick Sanchez
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Grab nerf

Post by Rick Sanchez » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:45 pm

Lets cut the crap, i know Grab will never be removed which is a damn shame, so Atleast impliment somekind of nerf to it, Like nerf the damage Done with The grab Punch which is Ridiculously overpowered, and maybe even make some sort of limit to how many times you can grab or something in that direction. Or just remove it completely which would be wonderful too :D but anyway yes That's my opinion on The good ol' Ez way out mechanic.

EDIT: crap i almost forgot to mention, Fix the hitbox on it too cuz its garbage atm :D
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Post by Gurt » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:03 pm

You will need to provide more details than "The grab Punch which is Ridiculously overpowered" and "Fix the hitbox on it too cuz its garbage atm" because we don't see any problem with the grab mechanic. But you seem to be self aware with the "...i know Grab will never be removed which is a damn shame" statement. :)
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Post by Tom Th3 Assasin » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:23 pm

''Bazooka is too op..pls remove it''

when grab is such ''overpowered''then why dont use it?There are many to counter it,punch,kick,or throw weapon etc.

And another reason why people dislike grab.The ''Judo throw'' or just throwing off cliffs.When your facing a grabber at an edge,why did you slacked?
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Post by Rick Sanchez » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:01 am

Gurt wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:03 pm
You will need to provide more details than "The grab Punch which is Ridiculously overpowered" and "Fix the hitbox on it too cuz its garbage atm" because we don't see any problem with the grab mechanic. But you seem to be self aware with the "...i know Grab will never be removed which is a damn shame" statement. :)
It takes a fugton of Health thats why. Atleast reduce the Amount of Hp it takes. Dont take this so seriously, Gurt. This is the "Ideas and Suggestions" Section :)

and besides the game is getting so competitive these days grab just gets in the way. But maybe its not meant to be Competitive, maybe it just needs to be for goofs idk whatever im starting to care about grab being broken less and less while writing this tbh.
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Post by Sree » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:04 pm

I agree that grab + hit does way too much damage, I have nothing against grabs, it's the perfect counter to blocks but grab's counter isn't much rewarding. I know that you can just punch someone while he is trying to grab you, but it's not really that rewarding, but at the same time if that guy grabbed you, it's much more rewarding for him because he can deal 2 times damage of a punch or throw you away.

Maybe you should implement something like... If a guy is punched while he is trying to grab, he will take 1.5x usual damage. this makes sense and countering grabs become much more rewarding. Or at least some way to get out of grabs.
Tom Th3 Assasin wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:23 pm
''Bazooka is too op..pls remove it''

when grab is such ''overpowered''then why dont use it?There are many to counter it,punch,kick,or throw weapon etc.

And another reason why people dislike grab.The ''Judo throw'' or just throwing off cliffs.When your facing a grabber at an edge,why did you slacked?
Because there are people who have a life, who play for fun and not take the game serious enough to use overpowered ways of winning a game like camping in certain maps like crates to get 100 wins 0 loss etc.
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Post by Gurt » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:09 pm

This is a lengthy thread about the grab mechanic viewtopic.php?f=19&t=556. In short: Grab is one way to counter defensive melee behavior. If you're aggressively offensive in your melee you can't get grabbed because you leave no window of opportunity to get grabbed. If you get grabbed a lot then perhaps you're too defensive in melee.

We don't think the damage is "Ridiculously overpowered".
Gurt wrote:Grab+attack deal the same damage as two punches. Your DPS is potentially greater if you just keep on punching as you can chain damaging abilities faster together and dealing more damage.
So grab+attack is basically just a short burst of damage. If you want more DPS output then keep chaining attacks. If your opponent starts to block then do a grab and keep attacking. It's all very situational as always. If you got grabbed from the start then you should expect to get hurt in one way or another - your opponent managed to grab you after all.
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Post by KliPeH » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:43 pm

If anything, there was that button-mashy mechanic brought up a couple times, where if you got grabbed you could press the attack/kick button and damage your opponent as long as they were holding you. I'd propose something like that as well. Have these attacks be faster than regular melee attacks on foot, but have them do less damage. Succeed in a, say, 4-attack streak, and you get to break free. This forces the person who grabbed you to figure out what to do with you faster (sometimes grabbing is an automatic response after which the person still needs to analyze their surroundings and form a plan), and also evens the damage dealt to both fighters out somewhat. Now getting grabbed isn't a straight-up loss situation, you can do some chip damage too and potentially break free unharmed.

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Post by Rick Sanchez » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:16 pm

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Post by Gurt » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:33 pm

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While it's true that if anyone want to give feedback in hopes of changing something it must be done right.
Saying "Fix the hitbox on it too cuz its garbage atm" will do no good other than perhaps a reply from us if you can provide some more detailed information about why that is the case.
In the end it's Rick Sanchez's opinion that the hitbox is garbage. But if he can't convince us, the developers, why it should be changed and how it should be changed for the better for the overall gameplay experience then it will not be changed. This goes for all features in the game.
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Post by Rick Sanchez » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:38 pm

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What about the Grab + punch? its apparent it takes so much hp for a punch. Ye maybe i approached this the wrong way.
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Post by hyper copter » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:08 am

Gurt wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:03 pm
we don't see any problem with the grab mechanic.
Example:

Let's compare normal punch with grab punch..

Normal:(It's an example I dunno exactly)
deals like 5-7.5-10 damage
Grab:deals like 15-20-25

I agree that grab punch is too op but that doesn't mean it should be removed, And after thinking of it, I see grab punch is the only way you can attack when they can't block/dodge/attack back/attack first. so it shouldn't deal that much damage, it should be at least reduced as it's a good chance.

hmm wait a second (Big Smoke's OOOOOOOOHHHHHH) does the grab punch fuse the power of 3 normal punches?

I am stupid

But it still shouldn't deal the damage of 3 punches
as like I said it's the only chance to attack when they can't BLA/BLA/BLA/BLA

So it MUST Be reduced to at least... at LEAST l the damages of 2 punches... AT LEAST...Thìs is what I think...
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Post by Hjarpe » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:27 pm

The grab-punch damage may seem like a lot, but it's pretty carefully tuned. The grab is a situational move, in fact it is only useful when the enemy is incapacitated or playing defensively (blocking a lot). In a normal fight it requires timing to pull off, and the high damage is your reward for succeeding.

The whole point of the grab was to make the melee move along faster. It does so by 1) offering a way of doing a massive burst of damage which can turn the tide of the fight or end it outright and 2) incentivizing offensive play so the grab doesn't happen to you.

The in-universe reason for the high damage, at least in my imagination, is that the person receiving the punch is defenseless. It's a bit like a finishing move. Like in the movies, where the hero or villain charges up the mighty punch that knocks their enemy out.

If anything, we might need ideas on how to make these ideas more obvious in-game using visuals or sound effects. We're open to suggestions, because the mechanic truly works as intended but a lot of people (or at least a vocal minority) don't seem to get what we were going for.
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Post by Rick Sanchez » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:30 pm

Hjarpe wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:27 pm
The grab-punch damage may seem like a lot, but it's pretty carefully tuned. The grab is a situational move, in fact it is only useful when the enemy is incapacitated or playing defensively (blocking a lot). In a normal fight it requires timing to pull off, and the high damage is your reward for succeeding.

The whole point of the grab was to make the melee move along faster. It does so by 1) offering a way of doing a massive burst of damage which can turn the tide of the fight or end it outright and 2) incentivizing offensive play so the grab doesn't happen to you.

The in-universe reason for the high damage, at least in my imagination, is that the person receiving the punch is defenseless. It's a bit like a finishing move. Like in the movies, where the hero or villain charges up the mighty punch that knocks their enemy out.

If anything, we might need ideas on how to make these ideas more obvious in-game using visuals or sound effects. We're open to suggestions, because the mechanic truly works as intended but a lot of people (or at least a vocal minority) don't seem to get what we were going for.
Hmm, This gave me a new perspective.
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Post by Splinter » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:26 pm

Hjarpe wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:27 pm
The in-universe reason for the high damage, at least in my imagination, is that the person receiving the punch is defenseless. It's a bit like a finishing move. Like in the movies, where the hero or villain charges up the mighty punch that knocks their enemy out.

If anything, we might need ideas on how to make these ideas more obvious in-game using visuals or sound effects. We're open to suggestions, because the mechanic truly works as intended but a lot of people (or at least a vocal minority) don't seem to get what we were going for.
I'm just gonna throw an idea here, because I was discussing with people on discord and encouraging them to post more ideas and suggestions, if they're not happy with something in the game, such as grabs.

What if the grab was an actual finishing move and could only be done in players with less than 15% health? And, in this case, it could also be faster.

To be honest I don't agree completely with this suggestion I just made, but I just want people to discuss more about it. :lol:
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Post by mgtr14 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:28 pm

As I've said before, I really do think that grabs are overpowered, but it's mostly because of where they are.

For being in the melee system, it clearly stands out, and it has an ability that can instakill most of the time. In alot of melee fights before, you needed to land alot of consecutive hits to kill your opponent. Now, you usually just need to kick them over and grab and then throw them into a sea of acid.

A punch/swing deals damage, only knocks your opponent over if it's the third swing/punch or if he's hit midair.
A kick knocks your opponent around, and only staggers him on ground, useful for kicking him off to somewhere, but you atleast need very good timing and positioning. It can also be easily punished sometimes since it has a long kneel afterwards.
A block just blocks a kick or punch, the only time it will do less is if you try to block a kick midair.
A grab, only needs to touch your opponent (It has a huge hitbox) and it goes on if you aren't stunned by anything. If you catch someone, they're yours for 2 seconds, as a meat shield if the other ones cooperate for a bit. And then, you can punch for 18 damage + potential fall damage, or throw him somewhere down or off the map. Also, there is almost no consequence for trying to grab, you're back in the fight as soon as your fighter is done with his grab. The worst you'll take is a punch or a swing.

So, melee moves go like this: Punch > Grab > Block

So a grab is very likely to happen, you may say that "you should just do it first", which also still shows how grabs can end a fight.
Either way it happens, it's not fun for anyone, you're completely disabled for 2 seconds, and you either die or take 18 damage + possible fall damage, while your opponent has all the opportunitues to just run away thereafter.

It doesn't make fights faster in a good way, it just outright ends them, there are even some players who think that blocking isn't worth it anymore, or just avoid melee altogether because it's too risky for even both people.


Before, fights could still be quick, you would just need some skill and knowledge, and you've got a fair fight (Only disbalance would be weapons), there was no such thing as "block spamming" because it wouldn't work, you could just swing after they're done blocking, it was an actual move that also worked.

Throwing, goes together with grabs way too well, both of them are abused ALOT.
Throws have a very bad counter, and knives deal 35 damage and all that, but I wanna focus on how easy you can use throws to land a grab. I'm not lying, It's as easy as throwing your weapon in close quarters (Baton range I'd say) and then just grabbing. If he blocked, He's stuck blocking and pulling out a weapon. If he was hit, he's stunned and he just gets grabbed.There are alot of throwables, as in everything in your inventory and makeshift weapons, trash bags are enough for this.

Now, let me tell you alot of combos that can lead into a grab.
The most important part of those combos, is that you avoid a cooldown from your mid-air kick, which is very easy to do. Just land on higher ground, or just fall a short distance, or do it in tight spaces, and make sure that you've knocked them down before you grab. Like just kicking them over.

So you can drop down from any prop, smash, kick them over, and grab. You can jump up onto a platform with a kick, then just grab them. In a tight space, like those 2 spots on chemical plant (under left corner of the red platform, and under right corner of the room). You can actually easily land alot of attacks there without cooldown in such spots. Like a smash, kick and grab.

Just imagine all of those spots in the game, in every map, it's way too easy to land a grab. These aren't some "pro" melee moves or anything, they are very simple and we figured it out a couple of days after grabs were added.

Also, it still gets worse, the grab has a bug where you will just drop your enemy as soon as you grab him for some reason, usually happens when you catch people mid air.
There is also a bug where if your weapon breaks, you can instantly grab thereafter. So you can break your chair on the enemy, and grab him right thereafter while he's still stunned from the very same swing.

So imagine all of those ways to easily land a grab, and then what grabs can do to your opponent, and the lack of consequence for using it makes it way too powerful for just being a move in melee.
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Post by Noble » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:48 am

I may be the only one whó don't have that bad perspective regarding the grab.

Honestly, SFD is most about fast games, where you will have to create the chance to deal a lot of damage in your opponent or killing him all at once, either by using barrels (that deals a lot of explosive damage), hitting someone with a grenade, using the OP weapons (Bazooka, GL) or knocking him out of the map by kicking him or throwing him off, whatever, find your best checkmate.
I mean, it's all based on thinking quickly, formulating strategies, using tricks, fooling your opponent and finishing your opponents the fastest you can. It's not only based on long close combats and camping matches.

If he fails in a jumping kick/punch and get in kneel in front of you, if it is just about the first punch and watching your opponent guarding just to be grabbed, or if he is in a good place for a falling from a crate kick+grab pattern, you will always have a chance to deal a clean one and finish him off to then go to the next battle.
And that is only the '1v1 point of view', if there are many enemies you will surely not be able to land a grab in your opponent.

Some people are still working to let go of the 'waitin' in the middle of a melee fight thing, that may be one of the reasons they dislike it hard. Or it may be frustrating to just watch yourself dying while you can do nothing after being grabbed. I'm strongly against reformulating something that the players both wanted and asked so much for now. I'd propose something like "if you press grab button (not attack or guard for obvious reasons, you can just spam it since your hand will already be there) the same time you get grabbed, you cancel it" or rolling being a valid possibility to dodge a grab if the grab is all about the scissors to complete the "rock, paper and scissors" melee system (you won't be able to roll if you are defending and the grab will be unavoidable) or I don't know, this kind of nerf seems okay.

Anyway, there's taste for everything, that's why we'd like to play varieties of modes, to play with snipers, or Idk, play with rules like "no grab", you can always find servers like this or create your own.
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Post by Sree » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:21 am

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I can't agree with you more. I've already proposed an idea to nerf grab which was to increase the damage someone takes when he gets hit while trying to grab. a lot of people still disagreed with me and kept saying grab is the perfect counter to blocks which I feel is stupid.. blocks have too many counters already, you can just wait and punch a player who is blocking. grab is a very unnecessary and overpowered move to be considered as " block's perfect counter ". a simple block which is intended to avert a damage done by a punch doesn't need a counter which could potentially kill you. This might promote fast paced gameplay but what most players want is the game to be more skill based.

If you really consider punch, block and grab as " rock papers and scissors, You are delusional. in a game of rock papers scissors, every counter is fair but in sfd, blocking a punch as punching back (which has chances of failing) isn't as rewarding as grabbing a person and throwing him into a pool of acid. I really reckon that the devs at least add something like you would receive more damage or get knocked down if you get punched while trying to grab.
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Post by Noble » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:08 pm

I don't agree with you but I liked the punch a grab knockdown idea. I suggested a cancel command instantly after being grabbed but I don't think that's practical, mainly because the ping is always unstable (90 or more) to at least 2 players in any server, so that suggestion of yours will fit better (and is probably the best alternative).

About the questions regarding the grab itself, it's important to analyze how it actually is, so let me solve the doubts of some before we all can try go to a consensus: A punch deals 8.5 damage and a grab punch deals 17 damage (2x punch). You can kill someone with 6 consecutive grabs (dealing -102 HP) or 12 punches, I don't think the grab punch is overpower, but that can be discussed of coursely. Even if it is all about being very cautious where to step and move exaggeratedly to be not grabbed, there are very cool games that are made all sustained (while SFD is not) on a special move that will catch (or not) the opponent or can have you caught in a insta-kill or huge damage. it makes the game interesting exactly due to that.

It's a good time for the players around to say what would be good for the game. The main problem of the topic was because Rick Sanchez critized without being clear at pointing out the problems or giving an open minded idea, and I kept hearing things like "I won't suggest because it will not be accepted by devs", what is nonsense. It's important to tell exactly what you think it will be good. I do not think they should work on or even worry about grab now since they're close to the maybe most important step to the game till now, but the community should always state their opinions anyways.
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Post by Vitamin E » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:16 pm

Grab is already pretty balanced. Grab punch does 2x normal punch damage. If you punch someone while they’re coming in for a grab you get minimum 2 maybe 3 free hits. It’s a risk reward situation. If you are standing near an edge, expect to get grabbed and thrown off. Better yet, grab your opponent before they grab you and throw them off.

You can avoid grabs multiple ways: first, of all you have to notice the windup animation before a grab so that you have time to react and then you can either run the opposite direction, jump over their grab, dive into them, grab back at them, throw something into them, or punch them. Grabs make the game more enjoyable rather than pressing two buttons and standing still while doing melee.

The only thing I find odd about grab is the amount of time you can hold people. It’s about 2.5 seconds which is quite a long time for superfighters standards. I tend to hold opponents the entire time just to let it sink in that they’re going to get a double damage punch to the face or get thrown off the edge. Holding someone for that long is the only taunt we have in SFD.

I agree with Hjarpe that there should be a different sound affect or animation for the grab punch to let people know that it’s not the same as a normal punch. Once grabs were added it took me a while to notice that grab punch does 2x the damage of a normal punch. This would be helpful for new players so they know how powerful grabs can be.
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