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Grab nerf

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Re: Grab nerf

Post by Sree » Thu May 24, 2018 7:09 am

[Failman] wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:16 pm
Grab is a legit concern that is being brought to attention by a concerned player. It has been shown to be exploitable to some degree which is why it’s being brought to attention, you not liking the topic is not a good reason to drop the topic especially since you’re under the impression that everyone was as satisfied as you were with the jump kick nerf. I would also like to remind you that Sfd is under development and change should be expected, if you want to have or do not want something changed a valid explanation should at least be presented as gurt as stated multiple times. Saying it’s annoying definitly isn’t a valid, I’d also like to you to reread both statements on kneels before typing your response. Both of us proposed solutions to the jump kick spamming so it would be a none issue, Please be constructive with your post we’re looking for constructive criticism not destructive criticism. :D
Of course Grab is stupid and can be exploited to a degree where you can drop a player to half his health with one combo, I never really denied that nor did I ever claim that i don't like this topic. The grabs need to be nerfed but the nerf shouldn't be changing the entire gameplay, the recovery roll is a huge nerf to shotguns and lot other legit combos that doesn't include grab and that's really an incompetent move. Well let me remind you that gurt has already said in his previous status update that game is almost done with beta developing and no big changes will be done, so jokes on you thinking that they will revert back to old mechanics without kneeling animations. Saying that it's annoying is not valid? bugs are also annoying, are we not reporting them because they are annoying? as for valid reasoning, I already explained why removing the kneel animation would no way " nerf " the grabs but only buff it and oh, can you please show me the part where you proposed a solution to the jump kick spamming so it would be a NONE issue? making it stamina based wouldn't fix it, stamina is so easily replenished and it's quite ironic how you suggested to nerf stamina in your kneels suggestion right after you disagreed to noble's idea because it would nerf stamina. You just seem to be incompetent at this point, let me break up what Noble meant here and that's actually a good suggestion. what he said is, grabs will consume stamina but it will work like jumps, even if you are out of stamina, grabs wil work just like jumps but you won't be able to sprint at that point which will nerf the combo in noble's gif, talking about being constructive, don't even criticize someone's idea unless you are sure that you got it right.
Last edited by Noble on Sun May 27, 2018 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed sub-quote for a cleaner page.
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Post by Noble » Thu May 24, 2018 2:55 pm

Well, about the stamina thing, recently I've been playing more than ever, a full day doing it, and recording lots of tourney matches (more than 30 till now), also feeling in my veins how much can stamina affect the game, what bugs can disturb the game and moves and combos that can be easily spammed. If I don't pay attention, my stamina and misrolls (I've talked about that earlier in this topic) would kill me most of Official map's rounds, you have no idea how long it seems to take the full recharge of stamina bar and how running and diving around can turn back to you, seems like it takes decades. It's frequent to see a player thinking he can dive the opponent but he roll instead cuz not enough energy, or run away mid-melee but low stamina makes he walk and keep getting punched. It's controllable and balanced obviously, if we play in a more efficient way we don't even notice. If energy was all that easily replenished, many players wouldn't turn ie on in their custom maps server (like crates, nf, melee maps I suppose). However, grabbing is an easy reset for it while at the same time it deal a real good amount of damage. Keeping the same amount of stamina the both grabbed and grabber (or spending some, whatever is the more balanced) had before the move is all my suggestion is based, that's my nerf for grab combos that can be abused like my gif, while I am kinda okay with the grab throw and damage. The hitbox is already fixed for next version apparently. I don't have any reason to support a grab nerf despite that overpower stamina thing.
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Post by Gurt » Thu May 24, 2018 9:51 pm

Failman wrote:Melee uses stamina, running uses stamina, heck even jumping uses stamina.
The grabbed player don't recharge stamina while the grabber does and that makes little sense! An overlook from us since we introduce the grab that hasn't been brought up to our attention I guess. We will look closer into the stamina usage for the grab mechanic.
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Post by Noble » Thu May 24, 2018 11:54 pm

Gurt wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 9:51 pm
The grabbed player don't recharge stamina while the grabber does and that makes little sense! An overlook from us since we introduce the grab that hasn't been brought up to our attention I guess. We will look closer into the stamina usage for the grab mechanic.
Guess I was right? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
However, I think this will already nerf grab so well along with the hitbox fix that there's not any need for that recovery roll change, can you reconsider?
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Post by Gurt » Fri May 25, 2018 9:05 pm

We're changing the stamina usage for grabs to the following:
- Your stamina will not recharge during the duration of the grab.
- The grab will drain stamina very much like a dive. Both when you initiate the grab and when you attack/throw someone.
- The grab still uses a cooldown and you will be able to initiate a grab even without stamina (like a roll).
- Whoever you grab will recharge stamina slowly - so fast decisions are key if you want to minimize your opponents stamina recovery.
Noble wrote:I think this will already nerf grab so well along with the hitbox fix that there's not any need for that recovery roll change, can you reconsider?
Sree wrote:the recovery rolls is honestly such a bad way to nerf grabs, it's gonna nerf almost every melee combos, it will nerf shotguns and it will change the gameplay a lot. all just to nerf grabs
Did you know that you can recovery roll after being shot by a shotgun or being knocked down already in the Beta 1.0.2c? We're tweaking the recover roll to also work when falling from smaller heights which includes being thrown/attacked after being grabbed. It's not like we're introducing a new move here and the recovery roll is not affecting how you grab someone. See my previously comment about why we're tweaking the recovery roll and you will understand our reasoning (you don't have to agree but that's a different thing).
Sree wrote:don't even criticize someone's idea unless you are sure that you got it right.
This!
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Post by Sree » Fri May 25, 2018 10:20 pm

Gurt wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 9:05 pm
We're changing the stamina usage for grabs to the following:
- Your stamina will not recharge during the duration of the grab.
- The grab will drain stamina very much like a dive. Both when you initiate the grab and when you attack/throw someone.
- The grab still uses a cooldown and you will be able to initiate a grab even without stamina (like a roll).
- Whoever you grab will recharge stamina slowly - so fast decisions are key if you want to minimize your opponents stamina recovery.
Noble wrote:I think this will already nerf grab so well along with the hitbox fix that there's not any need for that recovery roll change, can you reconsider?
Sree wrote:the recovery rolls is honestly such a bad way to nerf grabs, it's gonna nerf almost every melee combos, it will nerf shotguns and it will change the gameplay a lot. all just to nerf grabs
Did you know that you can recovery roll after being shot by a shotgun or being knocked down already in the Beta 1.0.2c? We're tweaking the recover roll to also work when falling from smaller heights which includes being thrown/attacked after being grabbed. It's not like we're introducing a new move here and the recovery roll is not affecting how you grab someone. See my previously comment about why we're tweaking the recovery roll and you will understand our reasoning (you don't have to agree but that's a different thing).
Sree wrote:don't even criticize someone's idea unless you are sure that you got it right.
This!
I believe I know things enough. You stated this before

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If you make it such that one can perform a recovery roll right after getting kicked from crates or cans to avoid getting grabbed after the knockdown, it is a great nerf to shotguns and most melee combos and hence my point, but if that isn't the case, I am sorry for misunderstanding.
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Post by [Failman] » Fri May 25, 2018 11:29 pm

Sree wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 7:09 am
Of course Grab is stupid and can be exploited to a degree where you can drop a player to half his health with one combo, I never really denied that nor did I ever claim that i don't like this topic. The grabs need to be nerfed but the nerf shouldn't be changing the entire gameplay, the recovery roll is a huge nerf to shotguns and lot other legit combos that doesn't include grab and that's really an incompetent move. Well let me remind you that gurt has already said in his previous status update that game is almost done with beta developing and no big changes will be done, so jokes on you thinking that they will revert back to old mechanics without kneeling animations. Saying that it's annoying is not valid? bugs are also annoying, are we not reporting them because they are annoying? as for valid reasoning, I already explained why removing the kneel animation would no way " nerf " the grabs but only buff it and oh, can you please show me the part where you proposed a solution to the jump kick spamming so it would be a NONE issue? making it stamina based wouldn't fix it, stamina is so easily replenished and it's quite ironic how you suggested to nerf stamina in your kneels suggestion right after you disagreed to noble's idea because it would nerf stamina. You just seem to be incompetent at this point, let me break up what Noble meant here and that's actually a good suggestion. what he said is, grabs will consume stamina but it will work like jumps, even if you are out of stamina, grabs wil work just like jumps but you won't be able to sprint at that point which will nerf the combo in noble's gif, talking about being constructive, don't even criticize someone's idea unless you are sure that you got it right.
Are you kidding me, How is this constructive? Freaking hell man, first off there is no world where “it would just make new players more annoying since they will just keep spamming jump kicks or jump hits since they are no longer limited.” is a good argument, secondly of course I understood what noble already clarified I just didn’t agree with it and even then he convinced me, your input as “detailed” as it was, is unneeded. Thirdly not everyone relies on cans and shit to make a combo, recovery roll is already a thing so I’m not sure what could be nerfed with adding it too grabs if it was already there, and it’s not like it’s that hard to wait a few seconds before shooting your gun what’s the actual problem could you please explain better, preferably in more detail? Finally The problem with jump kicks is that you could Spam it endlessly, with the current sfd melee and jumping takes stamina so if we say I decided to jump kick six times I’d be at half stamina then my character would be forced to kneel it’s not a nerf on stamina but a nerf on jump kicks if you actually bothered to read instead of trying to start a flame war you’d be able to see that. If you just pointed out WHY that idea is flawed then it would be constructive but saying I’m incompetent and calling anyone who thinks kneeling should be removed mentally challenged isn’t just destructive it’s plain toxic and I’m pretty sure Hjarpes already warned you on that so what gives dude? Lets not forget that gurt made it so debris no longer hinder the games pacing during the beta not the alpha, sfd can still undergo change wether it be big or small is totally up too the devs but change should be expected. Lashing out at everyone you don’t agree with is probably the best way to get your voice muted, which is why I tried to hint give you a hint that you were going too far but I guess I’m too incompetent to help a brother out. Can’t say I’m impressed at how this topic was derailed but shrug I’m not replying again for fear of starting a flame war, Can’t wait for the next update gurt and hjarpe!
Last edited by Noble on Sun May 27, 2018 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed sub-quotes for a cleaner page.
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Post by Noble » Sat May 26, 2018 12:58 am

Gurt wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 9:05 pm
Did you know that you can recovery roll after being shot by a shotgun or being knocked down already in the Beta 1.0.2c? We're tweaking the recover roll to also work when falling from smaller heights which includes being thrown/attacked after being grabbed. It's not like we're introducing a new move here and the recovery roll is not affecting how you grab someone. See my previously comment about why we're tweaking the recovery roll and you will understand our reasoning (you don't have to agree but that's a different thing).
Just to make sure I got it right. I suppose you read my whole post and saw the gif I sent earlier in this topic, since I'm seeing that stamina change done.
So, I do usually wait for the opponent to roll to kick him and make the combo (that's how everyone been doing tho). After the opponent's roll 've been always the best way to get an enemy in a combo. I wanna know if the cooldown will be affected, he won't be able to roll so fast after he already rolled, right? I mean, like, an example, I grab punch him while he's rolling, he won't be able to roll instantly after that punch, will he?

I thought that recovery roll would be something like seconds of grab invulnerability or something like this after getting kicked and trapped in that kick>grab combo. Otherwise, I don't know how that recovery roll change was going to fix what was mentioned way before.
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Post by Sree » Sat May 26, 2018 6:14 am

[Failman] wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 11:29 pm

Are you kidding me, How is this constructive? Freaking hell man, first off there is no world where “it would just make new players more annoying since they will just keep spamming jump kicks or jump hits since they are no longer limited.” is a good argument, secondly of course I understood what noble already clarified I just didn’t agree with it and even then he convinced me, your input as “detailed” as it was, is unneeded. Thirdly not everyone relies on cans and shit to make a combo, recovery roll is already a thing so I’m not sure what could be nerfed with adding it too grabs if it was already there, and it’s not like it’s that hard to wait a few seconds before shooting your gun what’s the actual problem could you please explain better, preferably in more detail? Finally The problem with jump kicks is that you could Spam it endlessly, with the current sfd melee and jumping takes stamina so if we say I decided to jump kick six times I’d be at half stamina then my character would be forced to kneel it’s not a nerf on stamina but a nerf on jump kicks if you actually bothered to read instead of trying to start a flame war you’d be able to see that. If you just pointed out WHY that idea is flawed then it would be constructive but saying I’m incompetent and calling anyone who thinks kneeling should be removed mentally challenged isn’t just destructive it’s plain toxic and I’m pretty sure Hjarpes already warned you on that so what gives dude? Lets not forget that gurt made it so debris no longer hinder the games pacing during the beta not the alpha, sfd can still undergo change wether it be big or small is totally up too the devs but change should be expected. Lashing out at everyone you don’t agree with is probably the best way to get your voice muted, which is why I tried to hint give you a hint that you were going too far but I guess I’m too incompetent to help a brother out. Can’t say I’m impressed at how this topic was derailed but shrug I’m not replying again for fear of starting a flame war, Can’t wait for the next update gurt and hjarpe!
So according to you, If something is annoying, nobody can point it out? If there are annoying things in a game, it's perfectly alright? Then why are we nerfing things here in the first place? The combos are overpowered and we are nerfing it only because people don't like getting overpowered.

Oh so no one relies on cans and shit to make a combo? do you even play sfd? because I can still perform a double kick from a can and shotgun or grab them whey there a knocked down from the second kick, just because you don't know there are such combos, doesn't mean there aren't, once again proves my point that you are incompetent.

oh and good point, If you jump kick 6 times, then stamina would be almost depleted and he would be forced to kneel, perfectly balanced cause stamina can't regenerate back which actually takes a few seconds and players can't spam it again and just wait a few seconds before stamina regenerates again and hey, none of this is actually an argument cause annoying isn't something I can argue about. a game should have a lot of annoying things and we should go through it patiently.

Jokes on you, I never got warned for anything, at least not yet. Oh debris no longer hinder the game pacing is a such a big change and gurt did it in beta so there is hope that kneels can be removed! are you really gonna compare such a small change to removing the kneels animation which could potentially change the entire gameplay? Gurt literally said in his previous status post that he isn't going to be doing any massive changes. I already gave a valid reasoning why Kneels removal would never nerf grab but buff it and you still seem to contradict it, If you remove the kneels animation, Players wont be limited to crates and cans and can jump kick you from anywhere and grab you when you are knocked down, the combo can be performed much more easier and anywhere which in turn buffs the grab.
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Post by KliPeH » Sat May 26, 2018 10:40 am

Off Topic
Sree wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 6:14 am
Jokes on you, I never got warned for anything, at least not yet.
I'm sorry, you know that isn't true. You have been warned (and banned) multiple times for violating rule #3 in the past. I could post your infraction history to prove that but I'm not trying to shame you so I won't do it. You have reached out to me and promised you will stop being unnecessarily aggressive and attacking other forum members so your ban's duration was changed to temporary and you were allowed back on the board with that promise in mind.

Please do keep behaving yourself; these sort of statements do not contribute to the overall discussion. They harm and derail it, and are outright disrespectful to all parties involved in it. I wouldn't want to have to silence yet another party very much involved in the game's development so don't make me do it.
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Post by Sree » Sat May 26, 2018 12:28 pm

Off Topic
KliPeH wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 10:40 am
Sree wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 6:14 am
Jokes on you, I never got warned for anything, at least not yet.
I'm sorry, you know that isn't true. You have been warned (and banned) multiple times for violating rule #3 in the past.
I meant i didn't get warned/banned for what I've said in this thread earlier.

alright, I will just stay away from this topic since I am going too far.
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Post by Splinter » Sun May 27, 2018 4:39 am

These stamina changes in grabs are great! Combos are a healthy addition to gameplay, they require skill, they're rewarding and make melee more dynamic. But having full stamina after doing a combo surely was a problem.

Now that this stamina change is done, I agree with Noble that maybe Gurt and Hjärpe should rethink some of the recovery roll changes they have for the next update. So I made a video demonstrating some combos we can do in the current version. Sorry for the crappy editing, but there was no need to make the video all fancy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcB7Wnj_bpM

Let me point out a few things first. As you can see in the video, MOST grab combos can already be escaped from with a recovery roll, except the one where I throw the bot on acid. I think that is the only combo in the video which I consider overpowered and abusive. The reason you can't escape this combo is because you take fall damage falling from the table, therefore you can't recovery roll at all. Which leads me to the next subject, the changes the devs made for the next update regarding the recovery roll:
Gurt wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:44 pm
  • You can only grab someone standing in front of you based on your X-position and facing direction. You can no longer grab someone standing slightly behind you.
  • Your grab hitbox while jumping no longer cover your legs - making it easier to jump over someone grabbing.
These are just improvements to the grab hitbox, good changes.
Gurt wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:44 pm
  • You can perform a recovery roll after landing from small heights and taking minimal fall damage after being hit by kicks, jump kicks or knockdowns from explosions or objects causing you to fall.
Yes! Agreed. We would still be able to do almost every combo shown in the video, except for that acid one.
Gurt wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:44 pm
  • You can not recovery roll after being dived, being hit by a jump attack and being hit by the third melee attack (full melee combo) or being hit by a melee attack while you're in the air.
I don't think this is a good change. Some players would abuse stuff like jumping on low ceilings and spamming jump attacks and finishing with a grab, and you wouldn't even be able to recovery roll from that. There's also those combos where players dive you into low ceilings, quickly jumping, jump kicking and grabbing. We should be able to recovery roll from this, as we are today.
Gurt wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:44 pm
  • You're immune against melee attacks while recovery rolling away from your opponent (does not work if you roll into an object or into a corner). This makes it harder to perform multiple kicks + grabs (or other melee combos). You can still be hit by thrown items and you can still be cornered and surrounded so it's not a guaranteed success of escape depending on the environment and your opponents equipment. Your opponent may also decide to sprint to catch up with your recovery roll and follow up with more punches so you may not always want to recover roll depending on the environment.
This change is not bad when in combination with the change above. But being able to recovery roll almost anytime, and being immune to melee while doing it would make almost all combos infeasible, so I don't agree with this change anymore. Players would have an almost free escape from any combo.
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Post by Noble » Sun May 27, 2018 5:25 am

@Splinter. Seems like I was right about the rolling after the 2nd kick being an easy way to avoid a combo if you're on the side of the object before being first kicked. Before anything, just typing what you had tell me today: In most situations, that kick>grab pattern specifically are always in a place with another barrel, table or wall close to it, making the recovery roll useless in this case. I do think this should continue to be a legit way to do a grab although, it's like falling in a trap. You should record that to those who didn't understand too.
However, I didn't realize falling from a default-sized object wouldn't have a recovery roll when I was typing my suggestion, we're most likely unable to run away from a grab if we fall from that height, that's why we were unable to dodge the combo in my GIF. I do agree with all you said above.

I'm curious about one thing though, not related to anything Splinter said:
As I said, for me, the best way to do a combo is when I kick the opponent while he's rolling. There are a bunch of combos we can do while the opponent is rolling, one of them is two players are endlessly kicking another (who lies in the ground) to each other. If we do this in a player, he will be able to roll in the first opportunity, eventually. If we do this in a player who just rolled, I've got the impression that he is, till the end of the combo (till he's dead probably), unable to roll again. I'm not sure, I can't take a try this late, but I will do it and bring what I got from this.
But uh, if a player already 'recovery-rolled' or just rolled and get himself in a combo, he will be unable to recovery roll during it? If he's able, or isn't, I think there should be a time, like some seconds till he's able to do a recovery roll in the same combo, I guess.
Sorry if that's equivocal, that's what I think it happens but I'm not able to test it right now.

Despite all this, I'm also but extremely against that 'temporary immunity'.
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Post by Lunatic » Sun May 27, 2018 8:37 am

I would rather see all recovery rolls give total immunity to melee instead of just away rolls. It's usually so in-the-moment that getting that roll is hard enough (especially because of how fast you get up once you're knocked over), and since you aren't immune to thrown weapons it adds some neat counterplay - something that I think is nearly absent from melee.
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