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Grab nerf

Give us your input on how we may improve the game in future versions.
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mgtr14
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Re: Grab nerf

Post by mgtr14 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:27 am

I really wouldn't like a way to struggle or break free from grabs. If you landed a grab, you landed a grab. Like how you punched or blocked, there is no "counter to it after it has already happened". I just think that grab punch, grab throw and duration needs to be nerfed.
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Post by Lunatic » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:29 am

I don't like grabs because you can throw people way too far, and as stated previously, it's very easy to combo into a grab by avoiding kneeling. Probably my biggest gripe with grabs is in the way kneel works and how players avoid it as often as possible. This is the main issue with grabs imo. I like the recovery roll changes, but considering grabs move at sprinting speed, the potential for them to keep up with a roll is there and will likely be able to catch both just getting up + a roll away.

Honestly, I believe the solution to all of these problems is to do the following:
1. Remove kneeling when you do jump attacks. They're limiting and promote cheese tactics to avoid the kneel - ultimately limiting the game and making it play in a way that otherwise feels exploitative of the game's mechanics in a bad way, not a good way.
2. Change the melee system as described once by Hjarpe (citation needed, I'm far too lazy to go dig up the thread). Basically, make the 3rd melee hit usable on-demand and change things to let players do 1-2 hits repeatedly. The strong hit on-demand would have increased range upwards to let players hit a jumping player.

These changes together would give players more freedom to do jump around, make the game feel a little less exploitable (since players can now freely do jump attacks vs abusing objects and low ceilings to do them), but give players a counter to jump-tactics in the new "uppercut". The infinite 1-2 punches are still easy to block and counter, but they also offer a better spam-wall vs incoming grabs. It's a big melee overhaul late into the game, but the freedom it offers and versatility it would provide would give many players the options they want to make the game have a higher skill ceiling and open up how players play the game.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by Sree » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:09 am

It's quite stupid how everyone is proposing ideas of changing the ENTIRE melee system just to nerf the grabs. I really dont agree with what lunatic proposed, It's like going back to the old SF melee system and it's stupid.
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Post by mgtr14 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:22 pm

Lunatic wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:29 am
I don't like grabs because you can throw people way too far, and as stated previously, it's very easy to combo into a grab by avoiding kneeling. Probably my biggest gripe with grabs is in the way kneel works and how players avoid it as often as possible. This is the main issue with grabs imo. I like the recovery roll changes, but considering grabs move at sprinting speed, the potential for them to keep up with a roll is there and will likely be able to catch both just getting up + a roll away.

Honestly, I believe the solution to all of these problems is to do the following:
1. Remove kneeling when you do jump attacks. They're limiting and promote cheese tactics to avoid the kneel - ultimately limiting the game and making it play in a way that otherwise feels exploitative of the game's mechanics in a bad way, not a good way.
2. Change the melee system as described once by Hjarpe (citation needed, I'm far too lazy to go dig up the thread). Basically, make the 3rd melee hit usable on-demand and change things to let players do 1-2 hits repeatedly. The strong hit on-demand would have increased range upwards to let players hit a jumping player.

These changes together would give players more freedom to do jump around, make the game feel a little less exploitable (since players can now freely do jump attacks vs abusing objects and low ceilings to do them), but give players a counter to jump-tactics in the new "uppercut". The infinite 1-2 punches are still easy to block and counter, but they also offer a better spam-wall vs incoming grabs. It's a big melee overhaul late into the game, but the freedom it offers and versatility it would provide would give many players the options they want to make the game have a higher skill ceiling and open up how players play the game.
What's cheesy about avoiding kneels? I think you're being vague here by saying that our current tactics to avoid kneels are almost like exploits, and then just suggesting to remove the need for those tactics and avoid kneeling at all times? I do agree that some parts of maps can easily be "cheesy" for melee, like tight spots where you can easily jump repeatedly and kick/swing without consequence, easily doing a punch+kick+grab combo or just kicking them away somewhere. It especially gets destructive when you have more range than your opponent. But that is what makes melee alot more dynamic in some way IMO, you make use of the environment and find some ways or drops to get more hits in. I really don't think that it's the combos that are the problem, I'm still convinced that the problem is how easy it is to add a grab to any combo. Wipe the floor with some kicks and then grab and throw them off an edge that started from where the crate stands, or punch+kick+grab for 29 damage + potential fall damage. The problem is just the abilities from the grab that can be added to the end of any combo.It's either 18 + potential fall damage or an instakill, and the instakill part is easy once you learn to kick your opponent over to any edge.

I don't know about giving players the ability to keep moving after making such "high mobility" swings, I've seen alot of people just avoid melee alot, giving such people a big chance to keep running even after swinging may be a bit too much for running.

Jump tactics? In what context? Hitting players midair isn't that hard, it's just that you're easily punished if you miss. Even then, you could just stand under them and wait until they get on ground again. And if they're running away.. well, yeah.
If you're fighting someone who is jumping around, just block their hits, and you could jump up too.

This would definetely change melee alot, but most definetely just keep what you dislike (Cheesy tactics to avoid kneeling?) anyways. I still think that each change like this should be discussed heavily, and then still be prepared for what the players figure out.
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Post by Tom Th3 Assasin » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:10 am

how about you kneel only when you hit?
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Post by Rick Sanchez » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:14 am

Guys this is getting out of hand, I didnt make this thread because i wanted to cripple the entire melee system, stop with the needless suggestions please.
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Post by Tom Th3 Assasin » Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:03 am

lol u think we are still suggesting the grabs bro?why we posted meaningless posts?rn the dev's are engaged in a new evasive move ''recovery roll''last posted by Gurt and we are elevating the system with our views.the grab nerf was meh...still a sggestion but now this thread got a new name "Recovery Roll''.and yea please re-read every post if you still have doubts
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Post by mgtr14 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:38 pm

Tom Th3 Assasin wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:03 am
lol u think we are still suggesting the grabs bro?why we posted meaningless posts?rn the dev's are engaged in a new evasive move ''recovery roll''last posted by Gurt and we are elevating the system with our views.the grab nerf was meh...still a sggestion but now this thread got a new name "Recovery Roll''.and yea please re-read every post if you still have doubts
(If I understood your post correctly)
I don't see how you think that the recovery roll buff is going to be a good one. Making us immune to melee attacks whenever a person tries to combo us is gonna be a good reason to not make such long combos anyways. And also, if it will only apply after we get kicked over again, we will only remove a kick from the combo. You can still just drop off an object, smash and grab. It's 26 with fists only, so it gets worse with weapons. Imagine such a simple combo with katana, that would be 33 damage.

Again, that would only make small combos favourable, and those small combos still have a grab and can still easily fuck you over. This change may even make melee more static, I won't give my opponent a chance to roll away with melee immunity so I'll just do simple shit I guess. A simple roll until you're on your feet or something else would be fine, so your opponent has a chance to do a small roll, and avoid such combos but without having a huge chance to get away.

Anyways, it may be a good change or whatever, but this already looks really bad from what's been said. We can still try this out and see how it goes, but I have huge doubts that this will work as intended. Out of combos or grabs, they decided to nerf combos. That just looks like a big misplaced nerf to me.
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Post by Gurt » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:53 pm

I think you're all interpenetrating too much into the changes and fearing that the melee will get a complete overhaul - it won't.

To clarify:

After reading between the lines we figured the core problem with the grab mechanic is being grabbed at the end of a melee combo after you have been stun locked and kicked around first. This makes grab especially dangerous relatively far away from pits as you could first get knocked closer to the pit just to be grabbed without being able to do anything. This is just a consequence of all the small interlocked melee rules combined and used to its full potential - which could be too frustrating for the victim being grabbed at the end feeling hopelessly out of control before being thrown down a pit. It's this chain of combos we wanted to address without changing the melee system.

So we changed the recovery roll so you now can recovery roll after being kicked to the ground (which is a key component when stun locking and knocking someone closer to a pit). This will give you a second chance to counter your opponent after the recover roll ends - it's not a free escape depending on what your opponent do, what you do, how you time it and how the environment looks. Kicking your opponent is still valid in other situations and is not an obsolete attack to do - just as doing combos. If your melee combos depended upon kicking and stun locking your opponents (and possibly grab them at the end) just be ready to react to any recovery rolls that may be performed and react accordingly because recovery rolls are not free escape cards.

Standing out of a grab's throw reach from a pit is much safer now and you don't have to worry about any pit three miles away in case you would be constantly kicked and stun locked towards it. There will of course be situations where being thrown down a pit will be unavoidable at some point depending on your previously decisions and it's a part of SFD, just like homing explosive barrels.
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Post by mgtr14 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:39 pm

It's not the only problem that alot of people have with the grab, and I'd still say the same about the new recovery roll. Anyways, I guess we can only wait and then see what we'll do with it?
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Post by Lunatic » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:24 pm

"It's not cheesy to avoid kneels! It's the way the game plays! If you remove kneels from jump attacks then *runners* will have it easier!!!"
I'm very confused

If you can do jump attacks without going into kneel, then surely you can chase someone and hit them to knock them down, giving you a moment to get on top of them - and that's just addressing the "running problem"

As for what I meant about "jump tactics", back in 1.3 after the speed nerf to melee from 1.2.1, players went to using jump kicks a lot because there still wasn't any kneel and it was easy to combo a jumpkick into a shotgun blast. If you remove kneel then it would be like 1.3 all over again, and to counter this, you'd give players the ability to hit players up in the air with melee from the ground. This would mean that a well-timed strong attack would hit someone that was trying to spam jumps, but that jumping would still be good and strong because you don't kneel at the end, which means it's possible for you to jump and hit someone to stop them or set up a combo without being forced to abuse a low ceiling or box. It gives jumping a more risk-reward setup instead of pure reward for doing it in certain areas. Any player that understands how to avoid kneeling can do these falling attacks with very little risk involved just because blocking these falling attacks still causes stumble, making them incredibly safe to spam.

My suggestions literally open up the game to make it more dynamic. Calling it limiting is the literal opposite of what the changes offer. I understand why players are upset with grabs and their ability to move people far distances, but honestly the fix to that is to just decrease the distance players are thrown and make the grab punch drop people directly downwards, not give it knockback. I like the recovery roll changes but since you have very little time to input a recovery roll anyways, it's not going to be a perfect fix. Grabs will likely still chase the roll and catch someone at the end of it. I'll be glad to test it once the update goes live just to see if this has been accounted for, but if I'm right I'm going to be a lil upset.

Anyways, Gurt/Hjarpe, please reconsider the changes listed and once considered by yourselves back in the day. Spammy 1-2 punches and strong hits on-demand with better vertical range would make the game dynamic and give most actions actual counters, addressing the melee issues people have. There might be some backlash at the beginning just because players here are so strongly against change, but I honestly think it's what the game needs.

Not like I haven't been wrong before though lol
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Post by Rick Sanchez » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:46 pm

Lunatic wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:24 pm
"It's not cheesy to avoid kneels! It's the way the game plays! If you remove kneels from jump attacks then *runners* will have it easier!!!"
I'm very confused

If you can do jump attacks without going into kneel, then surely you can chase someone and hit them to knock them down, giving you a moment to get on top of them - and that's just addressing the "running problem"

As for what I meant about "jump tactics", back in 1.3 after the speed nerf to melee from 1.2.1, players went to using jump kicks a lot because there still wasn't any kneel and it was easy to combo a jumpkick into a shotgun blast. If you remove kneel then it would be like 1.3 all over again, and to counter this, you'd give players the ability to hit players up in the air with melee from the ground. This would mean that a well-timed strong attack would hit someone that was trying to spam jumps, but that jumping would still be good and strong because you don't kneel at the end, which means it's possible for you to jump and hit someone to stop them or set up a combo without being forced to abuse a low ceiling or box. It gives jumping a more risk-reward setup instead of pure reward for doing it in certain areas. Any player that understands how to avoid kneeling can do these falling attacks with very little risk involved just because blocking these falling attacks still causes stumble, making them incredibly safe to spam.

My suggestions literally open up the game to make it more dynamic. Calling it limiting is the literal opposite of what the changes offer. I understand why players are upset with grabs and their ability to move people far distances, but honestly the fix to that is to just decrease the distance players are thrown and make the grab punch drop people directly downwards, not give it knockback. I like the recovery roll changes but since you have very little time to input a recovery roll anyways, it's not going to be a perfect fix. Grabs will likely still chase the roll and catch someone at the end of it. I'll be glad to test it once the update goes live just to see if this has been accounted for, but if I'm right I'm going to be a lil upset.

Anyways, Gurt/Hjarpe, please reconsider the changes listed and once considered by yourselves back in the day. Spammy 1-2 punches and strong hits on-demand with better vertical range would make the game dynamic and give most actions actual counters, addressing the melee issues people have. There might be some backlash at the beginning just because players here are so strongly against change, but I honestly think it's what the game needs.

Not like I haven't been wrong before though lol
The melee system is fine, Its (almost) 100% balanced (almost), And it doesnt need any changes, But what do need changes are Bugs and exploits, And balancing the game.
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Post by mgtr14 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:01 pm

Lunatic wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:24 pm
"It's not cheesy to avoid kneels! It's the way the game plays! If you remove kneels from jump attacks then *runners* will have it easier!!!"
I'm very confused
I should be more clear:
"""It's not cheesy to avoid kneels! It's the way the game plays!"""
I do agree that some places to avoid kneels can be cheesy, especially tight spots in a map, or some combo opportunity that instakills someone.
But right now, that's the only reason melee is quick. Imagine if every move you did always had a kneel, no matter what. That would make melee ALOT slower than it is right now, so a way to avoid kneels right now is pretty much needed. Otherwise, there would be no reason to use the environment either, so no moving around or jumping. That's when I would actually say that melee is "static".

"""If you remove kneels from jump attacks then *runners* will have it easier!!!"""
Not really how I said it, but yeah.
Lunatic wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:24 pm
If you can do jump attacks without going into kneel, then surely you can chase someone and hit them to knock them down, giving you a moment to get on top of them - and that's just addressing the "running problem"
If you wanna knock an enemy down in a way so you can get on top of them, then you would need to do so with a downwards smash, that will lay the player out on the spot.
So if smashes are still going to work that way, then you're gonna be able to just do a downward smash, kick then grab anywhere. You needed higher ground for that before, but now you don't even need to avoid kneels. So unless you're gonna make a downward smash OP by the move just being a combo starter anywhere, then kicks would most likely almost be the way to go. The only problem is, it's gonna knock your opponent away from you. Maybe not alot if the opponent is standing still, but he'll fly quite a bit if he's kicked while running. So not only will he most likely be out of your range unless something stops him, you're gonna have to somehow keep them in melee range thereafter again.
So if a person really wants to run, he still can.
Also, you'll most likely be out of stamina anyways, the reason runners can do what they do is because the only way to keep them in place is with melee, and not only does melee fatigue you, there is no reason for them to stay in a melee fight. They can just block, roll away and the chase is on again, melee doesn't catch up.
Lunatic wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:24 pm
As for what I meant about "jump tactics", back in 1.3 after the speed nerf to melee from 1.2.1, players went to using jump kicks a lot because there still wasn't any kneel and it was easy to combo a jumpkick into a shotgun blast. If you remove kneel then it would be like 1.3 all over again, and to counter this, you'd give players the ability to hit players up in the air with melee from the ground. This would mean that a well-timed strong attack would hit someone that was trying to spam jumps, but that jumping would still be good and strong because you don't kneel at the end, which means it's possible for you to jump and hit someone to stop them or set up a combo without being forced to abuse a low ceiling or box. It gives jumping a more risk-reward setup instead of pure reward for doing it in certain areas. Any player that understands how to avoid kneeling can do these falling attacks with very little risk involved just because blocking these falling attacks still causes stumble, making them incredibly safe to spam.
Again, you're going to need to make more changes to melee other than what you've suggested. A downward smash will always be a combo starter, so maybe you should nerf downward smashes so that they won't knock a player down? What about the hitbox/damage/knockback for the strong attack? If you can be punished for jumping around, will people want to jump around at all? And since it may not be a good idea to keep the melee moves the way they are, what will jumping be good for?
Lunatic wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:24 pm
My suggestions literally open up the game to make it more dynamic. Calling it limiting is the literal opposite of what the changes offer.
I never did, I just said that it wouldn't really change our current tactics alot. Tight spots work because we won't kneel, but also because we can do a downward attack quickly, and this change won't adress the second benefit from cheesy combos in tight spaces.
This would change melee alot, that's really what I'm saying. We won't know how this will affect the game at all, we may find new cheesy tactics or moves. I really only wanted the grab to be nerfed, but alright, I guess?
Lunatic wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:24 pm
I understand why players are upset with grabs and their ability to move people far distances, but honestly the fix to that is to just decrease the distance players are thrown and make the grab punch drop people directly downwards, not give it knockback. I like the recovery roll changes but since you have very little time to input a recovery roll anyways, it's not going to be a perfect fix. Grabs will likely still chase the roll and catch someone at the end of it. I'll be glad to test it once the update goes live just to see if this has been accounted for, but if I'm right I'm going to be a lil upset.
I think that we just needed to reduce the grab duration, so the opponent doesn't hold you for 2 seconds before something gets out of the way to the pit. The grab punch damage is alot when you consider combos, and throws are usually instakills, and the hitbox is huge.
They've said that you'll be immune to melee attacks while recovery rolling, so yeah. Which I think they could deal with in another way but whatever.
Lunatic wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:24 pm
Anyways, Gurt/Hjarpe, please reconsider the changes listed and once considered by yourselves back in the day. Spammy 1-2 punches and strong hits on-demand with better vertical range would make the game dynamic and give most actions actual counters, addressing the melee issues people have. There might be some backlash at the beginning just because players here are so strongly against change, but I honestly think it's what the game needs.

Not like I haven't been wrong before though lol
Ok?

So, add a new melee system that won't fix the problem you had, and add a move to fix the new problems that your melee system would give? I really feel like you haven't explained alot here, you really need to elaborate other than profusely claiming that it will fix melee and change the game for the better.

Also, seriously, It's not so hard to hit someone midair, unless they're running away.
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Ok.

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Post by Noble » Wed May 23, 2018 3:51 am

Hello,
So, I've just figured out that grabbing not only do not spend any stamina but it also recharges it at a fast speed, while I don't remember if anyone pointed that yet I suggest that the nerf should, instead, change that specific part of it. Even if you're grabbed or get yourself in a kick->grab pattern, the thing that can prejudice you the most, for real, is how your opponent will be already up to do anything else, like sprint and dive around easily, with a full stamina bar to make use.
While I was typing this post, I just remembered something that I think nobody would even report, a thing that everyone and also me 've been doing for a long time (like uh, since grab appeared) and is just like when the dive was nerfed back ago.

Image
(I recorded that out from a video player by the way, quality seems weird in this one)

I know it's a custom map and all, the gif above was done with 1.0 speed in the most played map in Brazil. I mean, people do really play this map a lot, like more than 15 servers hosting this per day for hours I suppose. I've just set infinite health. Though doesn't seem like he tried anything to leave this combo in that gif (what's true), that's way harder to avoid than it looks, and if you are caught in this after rolling, you can be on that endlessly (since you won't be able to roll away again as it seems), and the only thing that can stop you from doing that is when something inconsistent happens, like you kneeling or tripping there (what also happens frequently, like in the gif, his body fell on me apparently? Ping and fps was good for both by the way)

So, if I think the solution of this is making the victim roll away from that anyhow? My answer is No. I didn't support the recovery roll change for the next update while at the same time I didn't understand it well and how it could affect the game at all (I mean, I can only know that after playing), but I don't think changing anything in the chance to do a combo following the falling kick (with guns, grab or whatever) is how we fix that. One of the main argument of those hating the grab in actuality is that if you're kicked by a player that's in the top of a box/barrel/table, if you roll (or not) instantly after that kick, you most likely consequently will end up being unable to jump or avoid the grab that comes after, however, I'm not against that specific point even a little and also, it's the same how hard it is to avoid a gun shot after rolling from that same kick. It's part of the game dynamism avoiding getting caught on something like this and getting the opponent in a combo since ever, what is so damn cool, and even though I know that isn't a good argument itself, that falling kick is also directly related to the player's skills and their way to avoid this, I will point out some stuff below:

If you're standin'-kicked in the head by a opponent that is above a box/barrel/table (well, you got caught by that first as you see), if you roll in the first kick, the opponent will probably come with another kick and obviously you won't be able to roll again, getting a shot or grab as a prize. However, if you do not desperately roll in the first kick but in the second, or not any of those but stand still and spam punch, jump or anything besides guard, you may be able to counter the opponent's action. As well, if you decide to jump when the opponent is kicking, you will fly away beautifully what can lead in your death anyways. If you roll before he kicks (try not roll towards a object when a player is close btw), my friend, that means you've totally put yourself in that situation. It's equally easy to be thrown in the acid by a kick, a shot, or a grab for example, the matter is your decisions and thoughts in the matches. That's uh, a small example of a very specific occasion, although it's not everything regarding it.

(that was my way to express my revolt towards grab haters (or not) in advance, those who despise being killed by a grab throw and its existence without a valid reason while they don't make anything correct in the middle of the moment to avoid this)

Finally, my conclusion of how it should be done is that a grab action should spend a certain amount of energy to work while even if the stamina is zero, it can be activated, and the stamina shouldn't recharge for both players (the grabber and the grabbed, taking a bit more time not recharging for the grabber maybe?). This is, for sure, a reason to rethink using grabs anywhere and a consequence for it, which is where the problem lies for some.
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Post by [Failman] » Wed May 23, 2018 10:01 am

Noble wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:51 am
Hello,
So, I've just figured out that grabbing not only do not spend any stamina but it also recharges it at a fast speed, while I don't remember if anyone pointed that yet I suggest that the nerf should, instead, change that specific part of it. Even if you're grabbed or get yourself in a kick->grab pattern, the thing that can prejudice you the most, for real, is how your opponent will be already up to do anything else, like sprint and dive around easily, with a full stamina bar to make use.
While I was typing this post, I just remembered something that I think nobody would even report, a thing that everyone and also me 've been doing for a long time (like uh, since grab appeared) and is just like when the dive was nerfed back ago.

Image
(I recorded that out from a video player by the way, quality seems weird in this one)

I know it's a custom map and all, the gif above was done with 1.0 speed in the most played map in Brazil. I mean, people do really play this map a lot, like more than 15 servers hosting this per day for hours I suppose. I've just set infinite health. Though doesn't seem like he tried anything to leave this combo in that gif (what's true), that's way harder to avoid than it looks, and if you are caught in this after rolling, you can be on that endlessly (since you won't be able to roll away again as it seems), and the only thing that can stop you from doing that is when something inconsistent happens, like you kneeling or tripping there (what also happens frequently, like in the gif, his body fell on me apparently? Ping and fps was good for both by the way)

So, if I think the solution of this is making the victim roll away from that anyhow? My answer is No. I didn't support the recovery roll change for the next update while at the same time I didn't understand it well and how it could affect the game at all (I mean, I can only know that after playing), but I don't think changing anything in the chance to do a combo following the falling kick (with guns, grab or whatever) is how we fix that. One of the main argument of those hating the grab in actuality is that if you're kicked by a player that's in the top of a box/barrel/table, if you roll (or not) instantly after that kick, you most likely consequently will end up being unable to jump or avoid the grab that comes after, however, I'm not against that specific point even a little and also, it's the same how hard it is to avoid a gun shot after rolling from that same kick. It's part of the game dynamism avoiding getting caught on something like this and getting the opponent in a combo since ever, what is so damn cool, and even though I know that isn't a good argument itself, that falling kick is also directly related to the player's skills and their way to avoid this, I will point out some stuff below:

If you're standin'-kicked in the head by a opponent that is above a box/barrel/table (well, you got caught by that first as you see), if you roll in the first kick, the opponent will probably come with another kick and obviously you won't be able to roll again, getting a shot or grab as a prize. However, if you do not desperately roll in the first kick but in the second, or not any of those but stand still and spam punch, jump or anything besides guard, you may be able to counter the opponent's action. As well, if you decide to jump when the opponent is kicking, you will fly away beautifully what can lead in your death anyways. If you roll before he kicks (try not roll towards a object when a player is close btw), my friend, that means you've totally put yourself in that situation. It's equally easy to be thrown in the acid by a kick, a shot, or a grab for example, the matter is your decisions and thoughts in the matches. That's uh, a small example of a very specific occasion, although it's not everything regarding it.

(that was my way to express my revolt towards grab haters (or not) in advance, those who despise being killed by a grab throw and its existence without a valid reason while they don't make anything correct in the middle of the moment to avoid this)

Finally, my conclusion of how it should be done is that a grab action should spend a certain amount of energy to work while even if the stamina is zero, it can be activated, and the stamina shouldn't recharge for both players (the grabber and the grabbed, taking a bit more time not recharging for the grabber maybe?). This is, for sure, a reason to rethink using grabs anywhere and a consequence for it, which is where the problem lies for some.
Stamina is in constant use, almost everything takes stamina and stamina has been through a few nerfs. If we go with your proposition which sounds bad to me we'd either need to buff stamina or make sure stamina takes as little energy as possible otherwise it'd be unreliable and/or choppy. It should also be noted that Grabs were implemented to deter players from relying on their block, and it's done a fantastic job on that adding a limiting agent would counterproductive. I think getting rid of Kneels was a good idea, the sfd from before used to be so dynamic but now everything so meta it just doesn't feel the same as before. If we really have to keep knees then we should make it so when we're low or out of stamina, we kneel, especially since the reason we got the nerf was due to Jump kicks being abused/exploited.

I agree with the grab hater statement, there are so many ways to avoid grab that it's ridiculous. First punch, it's not reliable but it is a possibility, second kick very low chance of this working but it is a possibility, third debreis literally anything in the area you can use to your advantage, fifth any available range weapon in your arsenal wether thrown or used the grabber still needs to get close to grab you if you use a ranged weapon like let's say a chain you're very unlikely to be grabbed, if you're getting grabbed with a chain then there is no doubt in my mind that you're using it wrong. grab is fairly weak from my experience thanks to all available ranged weapons in the game. Getting thrown out a map sounds like a weird complaint, I mean throw does tons of damage on its own and if you know that the person you're going after has an advantage in melee or is just looking for that perfect opportunity to grab and throw you out the stage or you just didn't think about it wouldn't that be the players fault instead of grabs fault, also couldn't you have shot him instead?
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Post by Noble » Wed May 23, 2018 12:46 pm

↑That's why I say grab should spend some stamina instead of changing its mechanical chance to work, still confused by why both grabber and grabbed who could be with 0 stamina are left with full stamina bar after the action, that leads not only in the gif I recorded, a melee fight in its totality should result in less HP and stamina for both players, and the grab 've been a reset for this, while there are nothing wrong with the grab itself, since it already has its difficult to work.

And, technically, in a reality point of view, we could say both the one grabbing and the one grabbed spend energy to do it or leave it.

However, I don't support much a player being always able to sprint and dive having a full stamina bar to use after the grab.
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Post by [Failman] » Wed May 23, 2018 5:46 pm

^ you lost like half of your stamina ln that combo though, lmao. If I learned one thing from the kneel updates it’s that adding limitations on sfd generally makes it worse, I’d rather have roll since it would at least keep things moving instead of being limited on option, and like I said before stamina is in constant use. Melee uses stamina, running uses stamina, heck even jumping uses stamina. if we do decide to go with the grabs being relient on the stamina thing then it should be like jump block where when you’re low on stamina you get a noticeably shorter grab or a grab that does less damage like how when you jump block you fall instead of just blocking. Basically a noticeably inferior version of the previous action.
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Post by Sree » Wed May 23, 2018 6:09 pm

honestly If anyone thinks that removing the kneel animation would make the game better, you are just clinically stupid. right now, you have to depend on crates or cans to knock down someone with a kick and then grab, you are limited but if kneel animation is removed, you can just do that combo anywhere, it would no way nerf the grab or make the game better. it would just make new players more annoying since they will just keep spamming jump kicks or jump hits since they are no longer limited.

Edit: can we please not have suggestions to nerf grabs that can potentially change the entire gameplay? the recovery rolls is honestly such a bad way to nerf grabs, it's gonna nerf almost every melee combos, it will nerf shotguns and it will change the gameplay a lot. all just to nerf grabs lol smh
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Post by Noble » Wed May 23, 2018 9:35 pm

[Failman] wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 5:46 pm
^ you lost like half of your stamina ln that combo though, lmao.
Dunno what you mean. The gif? I didn't lose a single drop of stamina, and was able to keep going endlessly on it. Review it.
[Failman] wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 5:46 pm
If I learned one thing from the kneel updates it’s that adding limitations on sfd generally makes it worse, I’d rather have roll since it would at least keep things moving instead of being limited on option, and like I said before stamina is in constant use.
Whilst not a limitation, it's almost like setting something that should've been done already. Grabbing is like having a reset to the stamina bar for both players, no matter how much stamina you were, when the grab action finishes both players are with it full. That's contradictory for the way melee fight have always been (not that this is the problem of it btw).
[Failman] wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 5:46 pm
if we do decide to go with the grabs being relient on the stamina thing then it should be like jump block where when you’re low on stamina you get a noticeably shorter grab or a grab that does less damage like how when you jump block you fall instead of just blocking. Basically a noticeably inferior version of the previous action.
Well, as I said in my suggestion, the grab shouldn't be affected by how much stamina it's left, just like the jumps, and always work how it is intended, however, leaving the grabber with less stamina (or not changing how much stamina he had before grabbing at all). If he had zero stamina, he'd be able to grab the way he's supposed to do, just like you can jump and roll, but after the grab leaving with the same amount of stamina he had before doing it.

When you jump block and fall, it's related to two things, if you were hit in the head or body, and if both you and your opponent were going up or down, and I didn't get what's your comparison.
Sree wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 6:09 pm
Can we please not have suggestions to nerf grabs that can potentially change the entire gameplay? the recovery rolls is honestly such a bad way to nerf grabs, it's gonna nerf almost every melee combos, it will nerf shotguns and it will change the gameplay a lot. all just to nerf grabs lol smh
And here I am, sitting alone, the only one who thinks the grab is ok, the same way the combos are. Well, that before I realized its problem, grabbing would replenish your stamina completely making you able to do anything else like dive the opponent or whatever, there's nothing about limitation here<, it seems almost like a mistake. The rolls are also ok. Anyway, I stated a similar opinion regarding this:
Noble wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 3:51 am
So, if I think the solution of this is making the victim roll away from that anyhow? My answer is No. I didn't support the recovery roll change (...), but I don't think changing anything in the chance to do a combo following the falling kick (with guns, grab or whatever) is how we fix that. One of the main argument of those hating the grab in actuality is that if you're kicked by a player that's in the top of a box/barrel/table, if you roll (or not) instantly after that kick, you most likely consequently will end up being unable to jump or avoid the grab that comes after, however, I'm not against that specific point even a little and also, it's the same how hard it is to avoid a gun shot after rolling from that same kick. It's part of the game dynamism avoiding getting caught on something like this and getting the opponent in a combo since ever.
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Post by [Failman] » Wed May 23, 2018 10:16 pm

Sree wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 6:09 pm
honestly If anyone thinks that removing the kneel animation would make the game better, you are just clinically stupid. right now, you have to depend on crates or cans to knock down someone with a kick and then grab, you are limited but if kneel animation is removed, you can just do that combo anywhere, it would no way nerf the grab or make the game better. it would just make new players more annoying since they will just keep spamming jump kicks or jump hits since they are no longer limited.

Edit: can we please not have suggestions to nerf grabs that can potentially change the entire gameplay? the recovery rolls is honestly such a bad way to nerf grabs, it's gonna nerf almost every melee combos, it will nerf shotguns and it will change the gameplay a lot. all just to nerf grabs lol smh
Grab is a legit concern that is being brought to attention by a concerned player. It has been shown to be exploitable to some degree which is why it’s being brought to attention, you not liking the topic is not a good reason to drop the topic especially since you’re under the impression that everyone was as satisfied as you were with the jump kick nerf. I would also like to remind you that Sfd is under development and change should be expected, if you want to have or do not want something changed a valid explanation should at least be presented as gurt as stated multiple times. Saying it’s annoying definitly isn’t a valid, I’d also like to you to reread both statements on kneels before typing your response. Both of us proposed solutions to the jump kick spamming so it would be a none issue, Please be constructive with your post we’re looking for constructive criticism not destructive criticism. :D
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