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Blunderbuss & Sidearm Shotgun - Weapon idea

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JBT
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Blunderbuss & Sidearm Shotgun - Weapon idea

Post by JBT » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:02 am

This pair of items are shotguns which have awful spread, but can be charged up by holding the attack button similarly to how you can prime a grenade toss, but instead letting you cram more scrap down the barrel to shred your opponent to even greater degree! Disclaimer : doing this in real life will not work and may cause your gun to explode The Blunderbuss is as rare as the flamethrower and has a spread of 50° to -50° in front of you. It by default fires 6? pellets, but if you hold down the fire button, every 0.6-8 seconds charged will add another bullet to the barrage, max of 12? maybe that's too much. I don't know. Anyway, upon pickup you have your magazine of 1 shot and 11 spare scrap shot. Every 2 rounds you add to the mayhem consumes another spare ammo, and after firing your reload isn't too long ( pour gunpowder down barrel, reset hammer, all that jazz) but definitely long enough to avoid the spam that might seem over-viable by charging 2 extra pellets for one scrap and shredding your close range enemies. The sidearm, which I need a name on ( I was thinking maybe it would be the Rusty Marshall) works very similarly, but fires by default 4? pellets, and loads extra scrap faster. Every pellet added costs 1 spare ammo instead of .5, and has a max of 8, with spare scrap being only 7 for a total of 8 uncharged shots. Rarity is maybe that of the Magnum. Also, both of these have a good chance to concuss your target, like all shotguns in the game. Cheers to any constructive criticism(couch A specific unnamed moderator cough)
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Post by KliPeH » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:22 am

JBT wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:02 am
Cheers to any constructive criticism(couch A specific unnamed moderator cough)
haha lunatic eats fuckin ass

Are you sure a hold-to-charge weapon is a good idea in a relatively-fast game like SFD? Especially one that is this inaccurate? Grenades already take a second or two to arm and even that feels long enough as it is. It just sounds to me like you'd be standing there with your blunderbuss pointing at the air and people either completely ignore you because you're likely to miss them, or just rush you down because the weapon is that incredibly slow. The worst that can happen when rushing you down and getting hit is getting staggered, because it's pretty much a single shotgun shot. Maybe if you could charge it faster, say at 2 projectiles added per 0.6 seconds of charging...

I don't know. It could be great if it turned out to be a strong mind-games weapon. "Is he going to pull the trigger now? Should I attack him so he doesn't do more damage? If I run, he'll be able to shoot more pellets but if I get closer I might get screwed too because I didn't get to him fast enough." Which I can only assume is the effect you're going for here, because the weapon otherwise sounds pretty terrible. Is the mind-games effect stronger than just getting shot in the face repeatedly with a regular shotgun? Or getting an SMG/AR mag emptied into you? You said it's as rare as a flamethrower; there's no way in a million years it could compete with the other power weapons. It's inaccurate, it's weak (assuming it does as much damage as the shotgun does), it's slow and it's not ammo efficient. Running away from it sounds way too easy, as is interrupting its charge.

You also need to take things like thrown weapons, grenade and mine impacts, debris, grabbing and general stagger effects from melee or ranged weapons into account - all of which seem to beat your weapon into the ground, considering the charge is the only good thing going for it so far (otherwise it's an objectively worse shotgun).
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Post by JBT » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:10 pm

I'm thinking it may need to have the spread tightened up a little, and it would probably be good to have two projectiles added at a time, but that also seems like it would absolutely decimate at close range and, if the spread was better, medium range. the idea of only getting one projectile added at a time was so you couldn't charge two projectiles while moving away from your enemy, then turning around to deal like 50 damage, knocking them over (because 8 / 6 pellets could EASILY land a crit at that range) and charging another shot. I think the main point your overlooking here is, you could charge a shot from hipfire, not just when aiming, but maybe spread could be too much. Also, if pistol was as rare as magnum, it might need to consume ammo 1 per 2 instead of 1 by 1, and maybe have more spare ammo
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Post by Lunatic » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:25 am

JBT wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:02 am
Cheers to any constructive criticism(couch A specific unnamed moderator cough)
boi
you done it now

I'm a little late to the punch considering Klip has already said the major flaws with the gun itself: It's a slow windup, it doesn't compete well with other power weapons, its damage is undefined (but if similar to other shotguns is literally just both barrels of the sawed off), and if you're in a disarmable state the entire time you're charging it, you're just throwbait. On top of that, if you just dive at the person when close enough you'll likely dodge the entire blast anyways.

This weapon has very little room to fit in the current game's selection of firearms. Most are fairly unique and cover a certain area/archtype for weaponry. Granted, there are no guns that charge up like this, but if there is one this is a poor way to implement it considering it'll be easily beaten by multiple tactics and it offers very little to the wielder when compared to other options, as well as being rare enough to try to compete with bigger weapons (and failing to live up to their standards).

The only way I see this weapon being viable is if you completely rework it: load up additional pellets at 1/.2 seconds (5 per second), shoot them in a chaingun fashion (so it's a continuous stream [probably like 3 at a time] and not all at once), be non-disarmable but interruptable while loading, and leave the damage at the current shotgun level. Even then, this weapon will require an upper limit of loadable pellets (probably quite high, like 30), and a large surplus of ammo to allow this weapon to be spammed.

All of this doesn't take into account that the pistol is in a worse spot considering it's just a downgraded version of the big one, making it extra worthless. On top of this, neither of the weapons really fit in with the current game's theme or aesthetic. They are too out-of-era to be properly usable.

So, to reiterate, the weapon itself has no role to fill, has no special uses that make it better than other options, is outclassed by other weapons UNDER its rarity, is simple enough to disarm and beat, deals poor damage, and doesn't fit the current game's theme or time era.

And if that's too much proper criticism and you can't handle it:
"That sounds like a slower sawed off that's easier to disarm. Why is it so rare when it's that slow?"
Last edited by KliPeH on Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Lunatic has asked me if I would be willing to help him understand the difference between the possessive "its" pronoun and the "it's" contraction. I am, of course, a generous God, and replied kindly to the request.
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Post by JBT » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:09 pm

I get that it might not be great seeing as it's out of era compared to things like the laser-dot sniper or a bazooka, but sometimes that's kinda fun as an alternate look and design for the gun's theme. I got the idea from Enter the Gungeon which also has an incredibly high deal of this and I just tweaked it so it would be more stylized for the role I imagine it would perform. I don't like the idea of making it into a burst fire shotgun, that could be a good idea for a different gun, but an old style blunderbuss wouldn't thematically fit. On topic of the guns performance, I do recognize that it would need to load more pellets faster. I thought Klipeh's idea of 2 per . seconds would be a bit more fair, but hyper-speed loading for pistol might be interesting. I think both of you are thinking about the weapon differently than I am, because I had been thinking you would charge up a bunch of extra ammo, then pace away from your enemy, and shoot like 10 shotgun bullets at their face. Maybe instead of normal shot it would be a bigger projectile for higher murderization %, and it would charge slower, but the way I was thinking about it was a constant spread of shots to close the gap and then disarming / staggering your target with a full charge. Maybe you would be able to passive charge before a shot by holding the reload key, but that would ruin the charge-y gun
It probably would help the weapon immensely to have the shots spread out a little over time so if they dodge they might still get hit at the end, so I'm gonna create one of those fancy charts
Damage : normal 3.7, maybe extra 1 or 2 damage from 8 to objects
Fire-rate : You reload after every shot this doesn't matter
reload : pretty short, I don't want to try and measure how long it should be bc I don't even have the game launched at this moment
projectiles are released over a period of time, every .2 or .3 seconds you release one wave of shrapnel scrap which is like a bigger and slower than a bullet
So basically, you would try to reload and just fire normal 5 projectile volleys until they get a wee bit close, then you charge it up, and fire. Klipehs "mind-games" thing would definitely be present as you wait for a good time to shoot. Possibly the chunky projectiles would let you do more knockback both to enemies, and to boxes or barrels, so you could knock your opponent out of cover by moving the box.
As for the pistol, it would definitely not be as good as most primaries (I still need a name btw) but it would be much spammier, with less damage. Your 0.2 second for 1 projectile might work here, though maybe .25 or .3 instead
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Post by KliPeH » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:55 pm

JBT wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:09 pm
I got the idea from Enter the Gungeon which also has an incredibly high deal of this and I just tweaked it so it would be more stylized for the role I imagine it would perform.
The Blunderbuss is not a very good weapon in Gungeon either. There's a reason it practically becomes useless past the third chamber.

I know this is way off-topic but I want you to realize you're designing a weapon variant around an already-weak contestant. Perhaps this is why we see the weapon differently than you do; on the scale of all Gungeon weapons, the Blunderbuss can be found among its other weak siblings on the lowest possible weapon tier (D), spawning in brown chests and being commonly sold by the merchant on the first few floors of a run - a deal almost never profitable for the player, a thing you might have or might have not already figured out depending on how long you've been playing the game for.

Translated to SFD, it would practically be as common as a silenced pistol and, similarly to the silenced pistol, serve as a mere placeholder to be discarded as soon as a better weapon can be acquired. Since you draw inspiration from the way Gungeon handles the idea, there's no possible way it could ever compete with the power weapons in SFD - that is, if you don't make drastic changes to its stats like having ammo be loaded into it faster or upping the firerate like Lunatic suggested.
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Post by Lunatic » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:41 pm

And again, its just another shotgun. It cant compete with the sawed at this point and it just sounds like you're trying to make a stronger one of those.
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Post by JBT » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:20 am

I took inspiration from the item in gungeon. It's not the same item. You put like 2 paragraphs about why it wouldn't work because it failed in Gungeon. As I said, I agreed with your ideas about speeding up the fire-rate. My idea was that it would function so you would charge up release large projectiles in waves of 4 or less, separated by breaks of like .3 seconds. The pistol obviously wouldn't compete with primaries, especially power weapons. It would be a pistol version of the blunderbuss except it would load really fast and do less damage. To Lunatic, yes, its another shotgun. There are 2 currently. Neither the sawedoff or pump have charge mechanics. It would probably be about equal to the sawed-off because it only has 2 more rarity.Besides, I was thinking you could charge it before you fire by holding the reload button or something along those lines, and use the larger scrap projectile waves to effectively stagger someone coming at you, then do some good damage with the next couple bursts Obviously, you would need to charge it up a decent bit to achieve better affects than other shotguns, but fully charged it would be able to get a great amount of damage and CC
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Post by Lunatic » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:27 am

It doesn't fit any new role though. You're adding a new shotgun with the same power of the sawed off at max charge and then claiming it's a higher rarity. Your weapon does nothing new and isn't that special, and is easily thrown away for other, better items.

The pistol is also garbage. The only benefit I see for it is being a pocket shotgun.
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Post by JBT » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:13 pm

I thought I had made it kinda clear that it would be more powerful than sawed-off past 2/3 charge. For rarity, I could just make it less rare if it is outperformed by the sawed-off. The pistol is a pocket shotgun, and I guess you could perceive it as garbage, but it loads another projectile every .3 seconds, so it would probably be pretty good spam. Almost every weapon is easily thrown away for something better. If there is a pump-action and you see a sawed-off, you usually take the sawed-off because it's better. Does that mean the pump action should be removed from the game? As for the uniqueness of the weapon, the most similar thing is obviously the other shotguns, but none of them have charge mechanics. Most of the weapons are less unique than this. "Assault rifle is just more accurate smg. Tommygun is just less accurate. Uzi is also garbage. Its just a pocket smg"
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Post by Lunatic » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:16 am

If you charge up to a maximum of 12 pellets that's 2 shotgun blasts, which is the sawed off. If you charge up more than that, and go for say 18 pellets/3 blasts you look at 66.6 damage and that equals fucking PAIN. Very imbalanced.

Pocket shotgun isn't really touched on by any weapon except kinda the magnum. That said, the flintlock is rather unique. I still don't think it's that great but at least it would fulfill a role not taken by other weapons. Double unique is a chargeup function that still sounds clunky and easily counterable. Loading spam would probably be the biggest benefit this weapon has.

I personally use the pump over the sawed. Sawed can be spammed better and offers big damage fast if you land both barrels, but I prefer to pick people apart with the pump since it offers more sustained fire via higher ammo max. Both are viable in their own sense, it's up to the user to pick fire rate and higher damage spikes vs sustained use.

I'll let it stand with the automatics, but the uzi is a secondary slot DPS machine capable of standing against the M60. It lacks the sustained fire but the DPS is insane, and landing many bullets in short periods of time knocks players down, leading to further vulnerabilities.

I also don't agree that the automatics should be as similar as they are. I'd rather the Assault Rifle be a 3-round-burst weapon, and the Tommy should have more ammo + fire rate but low damage so it can be a sustained fire/oppressive weapon. You aren't wrong in their current similarities but that isn't an ideal setup for the game lmao.
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Post by JBT » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:06 am

I had stated the chunky "scrap" projectiles would be bigger, slower, and have from normal 3.7 to 4.5 damage, probably somewhere inbetween. Also they'd have slightly higher crit, but that's a maybe. Magnum aint really a pocket shotgun imo, more of a pocket sniper but whatever.
I also like pump better than the sawedoff bc of sustainability and what feels like better spread. Might be psychosomatic, and the last part was kinda me being incredibly sarcastic in return to the "just a garbage pocket shotgun" but a 3 round burst AR would actually be pretty cool. Also, I think that tommygun change would be cool but crit chance would be wierded up at higher firerate. On topic of the blunderbuss / flintlock(thank u for a better name though a flintlock is single fire), you are also forgetting that even if there was an INSANE max charge, it would be released in waves of 4, and it would use a shitload lot of ammo. Not sure how much, but more pellets = more ammo cost at a ratio of like, 1 / 3 ?
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