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Fix the Sniper: A formal request

Give us your input on how we may improve the game in future versions.
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Lunatic
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Re: Fix the Sniper: A formal request

Post by Lunatic » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:27 pm

Shotgun crit ALWAYS happens if all 6 shots connect. It's the only weapon that has a guaranteed crit requirement, and it's one that makes sense. I'd be kinda upset if the shotguns didn't have a guaranteed crit and I'd probably make a thread about that too as a result.

I understand the sniper can be used to snipe but random crits don't properly reward a good snipe, the damage output as a result is random and thus rewards pure luck, and the way the gun is designed makes it more effective as a shotgun than a sniper because it's easier to shoot people when they're closer rather than farther. If you want it to be random, I guess that's your call, but I don't think the sniper should be left to blind chance due to what kind of weapon it is.

It's also the weakest power weapon as a result.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by Gurt » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:52 pm

Lunatic wrote:Shotgun crit ALWAYS happens if all 6 shots connect. It's the only weapon that has a guaranteed crit requirement, and it's one that makes sense. I'd be kinda upset if the shotguns didn't have a guaranteed crit and I'd probably make a thread about that too as a result.
Actually there's a sub-system to the crit system if we need to go into details and be technical. If you get hit by enough bullets in a short period of time (shotgun blasts for example) you will get knocked down (but technically no crits). This applies to all bullets in general, that's why you eventually fall over if you get hit by enough bullets in a short period of time when being hit by a rifle for example.
Lunatic wrote:I understand the sniper can be used to snipe but random crits don't properly reward a good snipe, the damage output as a result is random and thus rewards pure luck, and the way the gun is designed makes it more effective as a shotgun than a sniper because it's easier to shoot people when they're closer rather than farther. If you want it to be random, I guess that's your call, but I don't think the sniper should be left to blind chance due to what kind of weapon it is.

It's also the weakest power weapon as a result.
I disagree with your opinion. The hit itself is reward enough and hitting someone has very little with luck to do. The high crit chance on top of this makes it even more deadly (and exciting!). Due to the sniper's limited ammo and not a guaranteed crit it's not as efficient as a shotgun in close range when it comes to knockdowns. The accuracy and high damage makes it better over longer distances than a shotgun.

I also disagree that it's the weakest power weapon. The accuracy mixed with the high damage output can make it better than a M60 or grenade launcher under the right circumstances. It's all based on situations.

I guess our opinions split and we just don't see the problem as you do using a sniper in close range. :D
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Post by Lunatic » Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:46 am

There's technically nothing wrong with using a sniper in close range combat. It's still a powerful high-caliber weapon and I agree it should deal big damage regardless of where it's used. I just think it's wrong that you get the same rewards for using it up close and far away, as it's more difficult to use at a distance than it is up close. That being the case, it's a better weapon for CQC than it is for actual sniping simply because it's harder to miss. By giving it just 5 more damage per crit and making the crits guaranteed, CQC is still good because it's dealing big damage, but long range is properly rewarded by keeping it a proper power weapon.

"You're still being rewarded for the hit itself!" "I use it for sniping so there can't be a problem!" When you make a weapon, obviously you're influencing the player to act in a particular fashion. When I pick up a shotgun, I'm influenced to get closer with it so I can maximize damage. If the weapon had literally no spread, I would sit back with it instead for the good damage at a safer range - I wouldn't be forced to get in someone's face with it. When you make automatics, the best place to be is just between close and mid distance since their spread will prevent them from being too effective from far away. The Magnum is a great weapon because it's got overall effectiveness - it's high damage (especially that crit though) coupled with it's decent accuracy means it can be used to pseudo-snipe as well as shotgun effectively, and since it can punch through cover it's great for aggressive gameplay. The sniper just manages to do Magnum and shotgun better with a fraction of the ammo. 22 damage per pump vs 35/45 per bolt pulled. Magnum deals 25/35, it's a great shotgun as well, and that's something that needs to be acknowledged: These high damage per hit weapons are best at close range, since it's easiest to guarantee this high damage per one projectile attack is going to hit. Players have to play carefully when facing a weapon like the magnum since if it's close they're very likely to be hit, and that's where the Sniper does it the same, but with more damage and a random chance to deal crazy damage.

That's why I say the sniper should have a guaranteed crit requirement of being far enough away from an opponent, with any solution you can think of to make it understandable: At about medium distance and onwards, the sniper can deal 50 damage per bullet. There's still nothing wrong with using it in close combat, it can still deal 25 (that's a quarter health, that's a lot!) meaning it's not useless up close and is still more than capable of killing someone quickly. However, players will be left with a choice: Do they squeeze out as much damage as possible, saving their extra bullets and using a melee weapon or sidearm (or run!), or do they keep out their sniper and try to pick off an opponent quickly with a weapon that deals magnum damage? It's still a respectable amount of damage, but it influences the user to use it for actual sniping, while maintaining that it's a powerful weapon to be respected no matter where it's being used from.

The M60 has a potential 800 damage with perfect accuracy, though that's unlikely to happen. Obviously the weapon can be wasted freely as it doesn't matter if you miss too many times. Also great for eating cover. Overall a wonderful power weapon.

Bazooka is an instant kill on hitting a player. It beats rolls and dives, meaning you have to fully avoid the rocket to not get killed instantly. Can seriously backfire if your opponent is decent at rocket riding, and is almost guaranteed to kill you if he has slomo. Fair imo, good for balancing. Guaranteed at least 3 kills with good accuracy, maybe more if you hit people that are closely together. Explosions also reach through cover and it's a good way to kill easy when someone is encamped and you don't want to run the risk of getting hit by your own rocket.

Grenade Launcher deals 60 damage on hit with high knockback for falling damage, easily pushes players outside the map. While boasting the lowest damage in terms of just the shots, it has perfect accuracy with an arc that it never deviates from. This makes it possible to hit players that can't hit you, making it a very safe weapon as well. It catches dives so it's another weapon you have to avoid completely, though it's best place to shoot for is the target's feet, guaranteeing the splash damage. I'd call this weapon the best in the game, if not the M60.

Sawed Off deals ~22 damage per shot, twice, for a total of 44 damage. Both of these shots can be fired together to quickly halve an enemy's health. Only a potential damage of 220, but it's a very fast weapon that spawns frequently enough to be a nuisance. It's borderline power weapon.

The sniper's damage range is 210 - 270, depending on crits. This is the only power weapon to have a crit chance, and the only weapon who's crits are extremely important. Either way, you're only going to kill 2 people max if they're healthy. I suppose it's illogical to think that all players in a lobby will always be at max health, but the 45 damage crit is still off-putting to me due to randomness. There are a lot of luck-based elements in the game, and that seems to be okay for you. There's nothing wrong with luck, so when a proper snipe lands and only deals 35, it's like... Why am I bothering with this weapon? Because I could get lucky? I could do this more easily and better up close and get the same amount of reward with very little risk either way. Giving the player a weapon with perfect accuracy and then allowing it to be the same from up close or far away basically means the weapon is going to be used up close due to the fact that it's just easier to hit a target when you're close as opposed to far away. Think back to influencing the player: People don't try to snipe with a shotgun, most of the spread will miss. People use the sniper up close because it's just a more powerful shotgun - remove random crits and make base damage 25, players will be influenced to snipe more due to it being more powerful at a range, but they won't be completely dissuaded from using it up close since it's still powerful.



After all of this, if you aren't convinced it's better with guaranteed crits, can we give it a try? Next update or two away, make the sniper in the way I've described. If it's honestly detrimental to the game (And I'll know if it is) then I will say such or you can say it, and it can go back to the way it was and I'll respect that. I just can't see the game being worse with the sniper giving a better reward for long distance shots.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by Splinter » Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:19 am

I agree that sniper is not very powerful as it should be, but I don't think it's better in close range. It's easier to hit, but in a greater distance, you're much safer from melee weapons, shotguns and other dangers. One thing that could make it A LOT better, is making sniper and magnum shots take much more health out of melee weapons. Honestly, a guy blocking a sniper round with a hammer or a glass bottle is what makes me feel bad about the sniper.
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Post by Judy » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:59 am

Super fighter > Normal average weak human person
Super man > a powerful being
At least a superfighter is able to take countable shots in his face and chest without crits before he dies by one shot! That's why the game is called superfighters! That's why we're all playing as superfighters!

You guys should watch the movie Lone Survivour, based on real events.
In this movie there are 4 soldiers that are taking:
- 4-6 shots in their body
- Falling 30 meters down a hill with rocks only breaking their bones
- Shrapnel causing bleeding and infection
(3/4 men Eventually die after some time but one BARELY survives after ONE day and get's saved)
Poor freaking bastard

We're superfighters for crying out loud! We can take harder than that!
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