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Assault Rifle rework (Burst weapon!)

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Assault Rifle rework (Burst weapon!)

Post by Lunatic » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:36 am

When the Assault Rifle first got released, I was hoping it would be a burst weapon. Think CoD's M16, the three round burst weapon. As we all know, the Assault Rifle is currently an automatic weapon that works well at middle to long range, sporting great damage per shot AND second, paired with amazing accuracy. This common weapon outclasses nearly every other weapon that isn't a power weapon in sheer output and utility. However, I feel like we have enough automatic weapons, and the assault rifle (visually) looks perfect for this kind of rework. The goal was simple: Keep overall stats similar, while making the new burst function work as desired without feeling like an automatic/too strong/too weak.

So without further ado, I present "The current Assault Rifle" vs "The new Assault Rifle":

Current Assault Rifle
Ammo: 25
Damage per shot: 7
Fire rate: 1 shot per 100ms (10 shots per second)
DPS: 70
Potential Damage: 350

New Assault Rifle
Ammo: 27
Damage per shot: 6.5
Fire rate: It's a little complicated, will explain below
DPS: Roughly 68 over time
Potential Damage: 351

So from looking at the stats, not much has changed on the surface. The damage dropped half a point, the total ammo went up by 4 and as a result the total damage the weapon can do only went up by one point. I also kept the ammo a multiple of three for hopefully obvious reasons. This is where the balancing was the hardest: Making this weapon good while maintaining it's nature and purpose as a strong middle to long range rifle at the top of it's class, without losing the feel of a burst weapon. If we left the damage at 7, the damage per burst would be 21 (at 6.5 it's 19.5. Keep in mind, a shotgun blast deals 22.2 total!). If we put the damage too low then the bursts would have to be faster to keep the DPS similar which would override the feeling of shooting a burst weapon, and then we'd need more ammo, etc... So now to talk about the cooldown of the weapon so that it all ties together!

The overall cycle for a burst would be 285ms. The first shot would come out instantly/1ms, with the next two shots coming out 47ms after each other. That's 94ms, which is one millisecond less than a third of 285. This means that a third of the weapon's burst is shooting while two thirds is not! This makes the weapon feel like a true three round burst weapon, while keeping it effective and stopping it from just being a faster shotgun that doesn't knockdown. The DPS portion is where things are tricky. After three bursts in one second, you're at 855ms. You can still put out three more shots in the second, but you won't be able to complete the cooldown cycle until some time into the next cycle. So if you fire the 12 shots in the second, you have 78 damage! But if you keep shooting, your DPS drops to 68 since you'll be putting out a total of 7 bursts in 2 seconds (7 bursts leaves you at 1995ms). This means the weapon would have higher burst damage while having lower sustained damage if you keep shooting, which I think is rather appropriate if not hilarious.

The final thing to think about is whether or not the weapon would have an automatic cooldown. The automatic weapons have no cooldown if you hold down the button, but the semi auto weapons (Like the pistol; basically anything that isn't an automatic though) adds an extra 200ms between each shot. Since a burst rifle would be somewhere inbetween, should it have an automatic cooldown? Should it have a slightly lower one? Most players can't shoot perfectly - a pistol could theoretically shoot 5 times in one second, but the precision required to tap the button that many times at just the right moments is intense. Not being able to put out the perfect amount of bullets actually cripples the gun's performance, so it's a tough question. I think the weapon shouldn't have an automatic cooldown, or it should have a very small one if it does.

Huge thanks to Pricey for helping me tweak these values! It took a lot of work to make them fit just right.

Thoughts? Opinions? Let's hear 'em!
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Post by gwendalaze » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:57 am

I suggest you to turn this into a whole new weapon rather than an AR rework (what about naming it the Combat Rifle ?), since the AR is, for now, the only really accurate automatic : Tommygun and uzi are just spray n' pray, SMG and M60 are average, while the AR got a consistant accuracy, which make it different from other autos, since you can use it to pin down target rather than pulling the trigger to their face.
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Post by Lunatic » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:31 pm

Silenced Uzi and laser sight SMG are both fantastic long range accurate automatics. I actually forgot about the silenced Uzi; that's 1/3 of the current weapons automatic. Don't we have enough? It would still be a fantastic long range rifle and the burst would probably be better than the current automatic AR.
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Post by Splinter » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:42 pm

Just some info for people reading this topic, between Assault Rifle, Tommygun and SMG, the damage per bullet is AR>Tommy>SMG. So AR is the strongest (I think they have the same fire rate...?). Wouldn't this be a slight nerf? Maybe the accuracy of the new AR could be better than the old AR, since it's a burst weapon, and not completely automatic, so more stability. Also, I'd say 30 bullets per clip sounds ok.

I think it should work as the pistol: if you just hold the shoot key, you shoot the bursts in a certain cooldown, but if you quickly press "shoot" several times (and at the right times), you can fire much faster, reducing the time between bursts.

Can the burst be interrupted if someone disarms me in the first or second bullet?
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Post by Sree » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:29 pm

Hey , in a burst ... like 5 bullets in 1 burst , all those 5 bullets travel very quickly right ? so that means , the opponent can deflect all 5 bullets in 1 block with a melee weapon. before we could shoot again , There wud be a slight cool down and the opponent will be able to deflect again, so that actually makes the AR weaker.
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Post by gwendalaze » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:59 pm

Lunatic wrote:Silenced Uzi and laser sight SMG are both fantastic long range accurate automatics. I actually forgot about the silenced Uzi; that's 1/3 of the current weapons automatic. Don't we have enough? It would still be a fantastic long range rifle and the burst would probably be better than the current automatic AR.
Well, first of all, I think you misunderstoood me and think I want to dump out your idea, while I just want it to be a separate weapon rather than an AR rework. Secondly, the silenced uzi still got an accuracy inferior to the smg, and adding a laser do not count since you can add a laser to every weapon anyway (bonus points on flamethrowers). Finally, by saying 'accurate', I mean SUPER accurate (not just SMG accurate) : AR got an accuracy superior to the revolver, magnum and carbine, making it the second most precise weapon behind the sniper.
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Post by Duck » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:31 pm

I really think the burst gun should just be it's own weapon.
I personally have no issue with more weapon variety. I'd also hate to see the normal AR go away.
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Post by Lunatic » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:00 am

Splinter wrote:Just some info for people reading this topic, between Assault Rifle, Tommygun and SMG, the damage per bullet is AR>Tommy>SMG. So AR is the strongest (I think they have the same fire rate...?). Wouldn't this be a slight nerf? Maybe the accuracy of the new AR could be better than the old AR, since it's a burst weapon, and not completely automatic, so more stability. Also, I'd say 30 bullets per clip sounds ok.

I think it should work as the pistol: if you just hold the shoot key, you shoot the bursts in a certain cooldown, but if you quickly press "shoot" several times (and at the right times), you can fire much faster, reducing the time between bursts.

Can the burst be interrupted if someone disarms me in the first or second bullet?
The AR is quite powerful, a slight nerf wouldn't be bad for the weapon. Regardless, this would allow the weapon to suppress better, deal more damage per trigger-pull, and have a higher burst damage in one second (78 vs 70).
Sree wrote:Hey , in a burst ... like 5 bullets in 1 burst , all those 5 bullets travel very quickly right ? so that means , the opponent can deflect all 5 bullets in 1 block with a melee weapon. before we could shoot again , There wud be a slight cool down and the opponent will be able to deflect again, so that actually makes the AR weaker.
You would be able to block the first burst, sure, but you'd probably be forced to roll if you want to avoid the second burst. There won't be so much cooldown between each burst to allow someone to spam blocks.
gwendalaze wrote:Well, first of all, I think you misunderstoood me and think I want to dump out your idea, while I just want it to be a separate weapon rather than an AR rework. Secondly, the silenced uzi still got an accuracy inferior to the smg, and adding a laser do not count since you can add a laser to every weapon anyway (bonus points on flamethrowers). Finally, by saying 'accurate', I mean SUPER accurate (not just SMG accurate) : AR got an accuracy superior to the revolver, magnum and carbine, making it the second most precise weapon behind the sniper.
I didn't think that by any means, I was just throwing my opinion out there haha. I can see the weapon being it's own separate weapon, though I think I'd still rather see the AR get reworked. It feels redundant, I guess.
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Post by Endergore » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:44 am

 ! Message from: KliPeH
Merged a new take on an idea with an already existing thread.
We all remember in Superfighters the old assault rifle where it was a 5 round burst with 25 ammo. How about having a burst rifle in SFD where its a 3 or the old 5 round burst. Something like the M16A2(3 round burst) would be a great addition to the roster of guns in the game. It adds variety and more chaos to the game since there is a new gun to fear in the brawl. It doesn't have to be specific it could just be called "Burst Rifle" when u pick it up or the "M16A2" whatever makes the devs happy.
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Post by RickAvory » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:53 am

This is a good idea! I think this can be a good substitute for the current (BETA WEAPON) that is already really similar to the SMG. Give some of the weapons more variety.
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Post by Yigrido » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:31 pm

RickAvory wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:53 am
This is a good idea! I think this can be a good substitute for the current (BETA WEAPON) that is already really similar to the SMG. Give some of the weapons more variety.
I think the point of the machine pistol was to have an SMG pistol.
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Post by RickAvory » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:07 pm

Yigrido wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:31 pm
RickAvory wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:53 am
This is a good idea! I think this can be a good substitute for the current (BETA WEAPON) that is already really similar to the SMG. Give some of the weapons more variety.
I think the point of the machine pistol was to have an SMG pistol.
Wasn’t the machine pistol. The Mp50
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Post by Artifex » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:47 am

Although i don't have access to the steam beta, i do think that the burst AR would need some more consideration.
For example, would it do the same knockback/stun as it did in the newgrounds superfighters?
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Post by RickAvory » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:54 am

Artifex wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:47 am
Although i don't have access to the steam beta, i do think that the burst AR would need some more consideration.
For example, would it do the same knockback/stun as it did in the newgrounds superfighters?
That’s a bizzare statement. Just because suggesting a burst fire assault rifle such as the one in the original Superfighters doesn’t mean every attribute of the original Superfighters comes with it. All that endergore is simply suggesting is the FIRE RATE of A gun should be similar to that of the original game. Nothing else.
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Post by Morpheus » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:24 am

Would there be an option to switch between Automatic and Burst?
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Post by [HERC]riotz » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:33 pm

i think we should get it into a whole new weapon or somehow add a feature to change weapon firing mode so it'll be much better and more suitable for certaion situation
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Post by Artifex » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:04 am

RickAvory wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:54 am

That’s a bizzare statement. Just because suggesting a burst fire assault rifle such as the one in the original Superfighters doesn’t mean every attribute of the original Superfighters comes with it. All that endergore is simply suggesting is the FIRE RATE of A gun should be similar to that of the original game. Nothing else.

Thanks for making that clearer.
I thought about how this would be implemented in the game overnight, and realized a impractical but funny way would be to make it so that burst fire was an actual power-up item like a Slow-mo, so that when people think they can hit their shots, they could "activate" the power up/attachment for a short amount of time.
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