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Old Melee was Better - Analysed Proof

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Mighty Spirit the 2
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Old Melee was Better - Analysed Proof

Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:20 pm

Recently I had the pleasure of revisiting Beta 1.0.2c, my favourite game version, along with 2 other veteran players Hiwor and 𝕮høpa𝐕løne. And I got to say that to this day old melee still feels 100x better then what we are stuck with now. I made a small video showcasing the true power of old melee so people could see for themselves: Old Melee demonstration
So now that argument: "Your memories are clouded with Nostalgia", no longer applies. Although to be fair, yes I must admit my memories were biased, old melee wasn't as great as I thought it would be. Still after playing it for a while I still prefer it, and a lot of others do as well. Tell me you wouldn't rather have thrilling melee like this

This post was primarily written with the intention to combat the "Don't project your opinions onto others as facts" argument. Sure, if anyone has bothered to read any of my previous posts on melee you would know that I've already explained myself numerous times. Nevertheless, I'll do it again here with hard facts, to show that my so called "opinions" in fact are facts. Let's do a completely objective investigation of melee. Instead of starting with the assumption that old melee was better, I'll ask the question: "Why and how was old melee better?". And instead of saying "better" which can be interpreted subjective I'll say "Superior". When I talk about melee, which also is a very broad term, I'll be specifically looking at four aspects of melee:

• Mobility

• Responsiveness

• Ping

• Complexity


So, "Was old melee superior in terms of …?"

Mobility - Yes clearly. As you can see from the video we could move much faster and we had a ton more control over our character. Being able to move after we get hit with jump attacks, something you removed in later versions (which let us escape grabs), being able to cancel out attacks meaning we could move whenever we wanted, being able to quick-roll made us be able to move extremely fast. In the old melee the mobility was the most important aspect of the game. When two skilled opponents go up against each other it's usually the one who was the most mobile who got out on top. This clearly took skill, diversifying the skill gap.
I'm also going to add stamina under this section as I guess it kinda counts as mobility? I mean the person with the most stamina can move faster and is in a better position that an opponent with less. Stamina was less of a problem in pre-Steam SFD because grabs didn't require stamina drain + it would fill up when you held your opponent in a grab. Don't get me wrong. I think grabs are broken, the damage being excessive and it having a really unreliable counter, but I appreciated it solely because of this unique perk. Grabs was the only movement that you could do with your character in the game that was stamina positive. I already think stamina drain for punching and pausing even just by blocking is cheesy, but grabs was the one way for you to continue to play aggressively. I mean in the video we didn't use grabs and thus I also put on /ie 1.

Responsiveness - Yes. As I already mentioned we could cancel attacks giving us much more control. Our inputs, even though blocking still seems rather irresponsive then, we could at least control what were our character should be at what time, meaning that we didn't just have to rely solely on blocking as our only defensive option.

Ping - Ping meant a lot less in old melee, as demonstrated in this video Hiwor with 105 ping could move exceptionally well being able to beat an experienced opponent with 1 ping with ease. Good luck trying that today, since most of those moves don't even exist anymore. I even asked him "what ping is better? 1 or 100?". His answer was: "For me, 100". There you see, today everyone would prefer the lowest ping possible because all that mobility aspect with high ping is gone. Thanks for giving low ping players a massive favour, mythologic ;DDD.

Complexity - Crystal clear. Old melee had moves that no longer exist in the current melee system, thus lowering the amount of possibilities in melee and at the same time the complexity. Judging by the fact that today you can kill your opponents of by starting one single combo already speaks for itself (you would know that if you played enough). It's also one of the reasons I stay very far away from those spots, since it's literally just the first person to land a dive. These "meta" combos lowered the complexity of melee since it's what everybody will abuse, thus leading to everyone using the same boring, repetitive playstyle. And you might be shouting: "But everybody was using double hits, and that's a boring playstyle". Well no, having more moves in melee doesn't make melee boring (especially when we can do so much more with them), and no, far from everyone was able to even use double hits. Clearly grabbing and throwing are more powerful moves and take a lot less effort to pull off. Anyway, double hits were only unfair if only one opponent knew how to pull it off and the other one had no idea how. That's how I felt for a long time and It's why I did not appreciate the move back then. Looking back today I'll gladly take that back no matter how broken it seemed, especially since that only meant that old melee had an actually skill ceiling back then.


--> I can even pinpoint to the origin of these nerfs right here:
► Show Spoiler

From my analysis Old Melee was indeed superior in these aspects. These are clearly facts that I even have video evidence of (ask other experts they'll tell you the same thing).


However that's not to say that old melee was better 100% of the time. Remember when at the start I wrote that it wasn't as flawless as I had previously presumed? I do appreciate some changes made, namely the removal of that annoying tumble when blocking a fast Smash attack and sometimes when your opponent super kicks and you block at the same time. All of us agreed that new melee did get that right, that was good change. I can name one more example that new melee did better. Back in the day we could cancel punches by pressing grab, thus cancelling one animation for initiating grab. So you could press a + a (followed closely by R), thus displaying the starting frames for the second punch and suddenly changing into a grab. This was highly problematic because it lead to people getting confused, seeing a punch coming pressing block and then getting grabbed instead. In fact I did this all the time and it surprising how effective it actually was. Both of the problems I just mentioned were things that needed fixing and had to go.

What didn't need to go was quick rolling and ability to cancel attacks. If you had asked me: "Do you think double hits needed a nerf?", I would tell you "yes they probably did need some fixing/tweaking", but the patch that was eventually chosen, overall made melee worse than what it was before. And if it wasn't possible to a implement a fix that didn't affect the entirety of melee as crucially as this one did, well…

...Then I'd rather not have any fix at all. (Including a lot of other Veteran players)


:!: Disclaimer: This took quite some time to research/write, so if you have something to criticize/add, let it be constructive/stick to the topic.
Last edited by Mighty Spirit the 2 on Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Maniac » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:47 am

Can you change the font of this? kind of hard to read :(
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:16 pm

Maniac wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:47 am
Can you change the font of this? kind of hard to read :(
This is how it looks like for me, doesn't seem that hard to read (right-click and choose view image, then zoom in).
But of course if it makes it easier to read i could format it into another reply with a spoiler. What font would make it better for you to read?
Off Topic
Edit 18:09 - Apparently there was something very wrong on my end. I could see the font just fine but then someone let me see a picture of their version of my text. That was some seriously nasty stuff, I apologize sincerely to anyone who's eyes i destroyed... :lol:
Last edited by Mighty Spirit the 2 on Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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🎶I will tell your story if you die
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...
But I've always had the feeling we would die young
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Post by Odex64 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:15 pm

Off Topic
The font was better before, now it's unreadable.
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Post by Vitamin E » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:37 pm

And I got to say that to this day old melee still feels 100x better then what we are stuck with now
Although to be fair, yes I must admit my memories were biased, old melee wasn't as great as I thought it would be.

So I’m assuming you thought the previous melee was 1000x times better but you changed it to 100 after actually experiencing it. I think the devs have updated the game to be better and balanced for new players and old players alike.
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:34 pm

Vitamin E wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:37 pm
So I’m assuming you thought the previous melee was 1000x times better but you changed it to 100 after actually experiencing it.
I did actually, yes. :)
Vitamin E wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:37 pm
I think the devs have updated the game to be better
Like i said better is subjective, and you are entirely entitled to your opinion (although a lot of people would disagree). I just brought the facts to the table.
Vitamin E wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:37 pm
and balanced for new players and old players alike.
Balanced? Don't make me laugh. This iteration is probably the most unbalanced version of SFD yet (after a dive cooldown got added to wall nailing from Pre-Alpha). I'm not sure if this is a reference to melee, but let me remind you that a game can be perfectly balanced by nerfing absolutely everything, and end up being less fun to play then when it was in a more "broken state". For most Veterans the fun of melee went out of the game by the removal of high tech skill movements that erased the diversity and possibilities of melee. Also throw damages and durability correlation (like how knife deals 35 damage and can be thrown 3-4 times before it breaks, equaling more then 100 total damage) + grabs still aren't technically balanced out to this day (can't stop it by spamming punch).
And if you think the "updating of the game" with the addition of Chainsaw and Shuriken and Incendiary ammo "balanced" the game out (something that @Pricey also criticized in his "What i (and the community) think is wrong with the game" post)), then I'm curious about your definition of balance.
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But I've always had the feeling we would die young
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Post by Maniac » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:17 am

I'd just like to know what's your motive behind writing all these posts
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Post by Vitamin E » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:08 pm

Maniac wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:17 am
I'd just like to know what's your motive behind writing all these posts
He needs somewhere to vent his frustration about a game he’s invested many hours in. It’s unlikely these posts will convince anyone, but perhaps typing his large walls of text help to make him feel better. I think the game is more fun that it previously was and I trust and respect the devs’ decisions to change melee to what it is today.
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:33 pm

Maniac wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:17 am
I'd just like to know what's your motive behind writing all these posts
I already explained the purpose of this particular post, but the reason i write them is because i want to enlighten unknowing individuals about the mishandling of the game and poor game design choices, but my main purpose is to bring the Veterans side of the story to light.
Its also why i continue to get peoples support and praise to this day.
Vitamin E wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:08 pm
He needs somewhere to vent his frustration about a game he’s invested many hours in.
That's not the whole truth. I didn't simply "invest many hours" into the game. This is a game that had a severe impact on my life, a game i believed in, a game i created a YT channel to promote, a game i then didn't hesitate to buy, a game i told my friends to buy in order to support these great developers, and was ultimately disappointed to find in a state even worse then when it was free. Something i then inquired when asking peoples opinions many of whom turned out to share my viewpoint.
Vitamin E wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:08 pm
It’s unlikely these posts will convince anyone, but perhaps typing his large walls of text help to make him feel better.
what do you mean convince? I listed out facts that i had proven to be true, so there's nothing to convince you of, unless you refute my findings. I also went through the trouble of doing it because it's something you asked for yourself to have people investigate the melee changes.
Also maybe come up with examples on how the game is more "balanced" now, instead of stating it without any evidence.
Vitamin E wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:08 pm
I think the game is more fun that it previously was and I trust and respect the devs’ decisions to change melee to what it is today.
Good for you. I just don't think it was the right decision to take the enjoyment out of the game for so many other players. What gives the developers who barely played their own game the right to decide how dedicated players with many 100 hours should play the game?

Whats truly unlikely is that any of these posts will change anything, since the devs already have their minds set in stone. The least that could've been done is make the older versions of the game accessible through the Beta branching. I would be satisfied with that.
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But I've always had the feeling we would die young
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Post by Maniac » Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:29 pm

Mighty Spirit the 2 wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:33 pm
The least that could've been done is make the older versions of the game accessible through the Beta branching. I would be satisfied with that.
I think if they make the freely accessible playerbase might split between the newest and old version resulting less players in both the versions. What might even happen that all new people going to the beta while nobody buys the steam version. If anyone remembers can you let me know if the devs listed their opinion on this somewhere until i find it myself. Also i think starting online services for beta version might be a good idea, and not really hard (I guess?)
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:13 pm

Maniac wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:29 pm
Mighty Spirit the 2 wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:33 pm
The least that could've been done is make the older versions of the game accessible through the Beta branching. I would be satisfied with that.
I think if they make the freely accessible playerbase might split between the newest and old version resulting less players in both the versions. What might even happen that all new people going to the beta while nobody buys the steam version. If anyone remembers can you let me know if the devs listed their opinion on this somewhere until i find it myself. Also i think starting online services for beta version might be a good idea, and not really hard (I guess?)
Nono. You have to first buy the game for you to then be able to choose the older versions.
If anything this would boost the player count considerably (including cash flow), and maybe yeah fewer people would be playing in the newer versions, but that's only because they would stay with the more popular older versions. This should kind off give you an idea about what people prefer playing and what choices were made with the game.
If i recall they said something like "maybe they would eventually do it", but i don't have high hopes for that happening anytime soon.
Maniac wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:29 pm
Also i think starting online services for beta version might be a good idea
Probably would be the update that brings back the most players. :D 👍
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🎶I will tell your story if you die
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But I've always had the feeling we would die young
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Post by KliPeH » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:15 am

Image

Some of the worst memories created from this game stem from having to play like this against all these sweaty-ass, self-proclaimed SFD “pros” in melee-based scenarios. Thank God the game is not like this anymore. You made me appreciate the current state of SFD even more.

I found a rare video of one of your old melee skirmishes with Hiwor.
Add this to your collection of videos when you feel like reminiscing about the days of old again.

EDIT: holy shit you cannot make this up
Mighty Spirit the 2 wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:33 pm
What gives the developers who barely played their own game the right to decide how dedicated players with many 100 hours should play the game?
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Post by Sir Kent » Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:47 pm

 ! Message from: KliPeH
User was warned for this post. The following rule was referenced:
Rule #3 - Do not intentionally hurt, harass or provoke other forum members.
This is the most bigoted and delusional forum thread I've read so far... Get your head out of your ass, will ya? I'm starting to think Klipeh hasn't even played SFD yet...
This is me stating an opinion btw
Sue me
And fuck u
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Post by Odex64 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:35 pm

Sir Kent wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:47 pm
This is the most bigoted and delusional forum thread I've read so far... Get your head out of your ass, will ya? I'm starting to think Klipeh hasn't even played SFD yet...
This is me stating an opinion btw
Sue me
And fuck u
I don't get why you're swearing and insulting KliPeH just for facts; melee was so buggy and too OP at the point you had no chances against "melee pros". You have also been banned multiple times in many Discord servers for your toxicity and naughty behavior, I don't think you will ever change.
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Post by mgtr14 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:20 pm

KliPeH wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:15 am
Image

Some of the worst memories created from this game stem from having to play like this against all these sweaty-ass, self-proclaimed SFD “pros” in melee-based scenarios. Thank God the game is not like this anymore. You made me appreciate the current state of SFD even more.

I found a rare video of one of your old melee skirmishes with Hiwor. Add this to your collection of videos when you feel like reminiscing about the days of old again.
I don't understand why you call them "tryhards". They're just players who are engaged enough to become good at melee and make it more interesting. While the new-found tactics were obviously better than "standard melee", they also make melee more diverse, dynamic and challenging. Which in turn makes the game even more enjoyable for them. Why is this so surprising and frustrating? Some engaged players like to push the game to it's limits.

The reason alot of these "melee tryhards" disliked the grab and newer updates is because it worsened their favourite part of the game . There was no "best combo" before because all of them dealt roughly the same damage - but now the best combo is always one that ends with grabbing. It made melee less diverse, less challenging and less dynamic.
KliPeH wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:15 am
EDIT: holy shit you cannot make this up
Mighty Spirit the 2 wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:33 pm
What gives the developers who barely played their own game the right to decide how dedicated players with many 100 hours should play the game?
I see nothing wrong with his statement. The developers have repeatedly shown that they don't know how the game is played, and have made changes and additions that were against the wish of many players while also *not* giving us an option to easily turn it off.
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Post by Rick Sanchez » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:21 pm

Odex64 wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:35 pm
Sir Kent wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:47 pm
This is the most bigoted and delusional forum thread I've read so far... Get your head out of your ass, will ya? I'm starting to think Klipeh hasn't even played SFD yet...
This is me stating an opinion btw
Sue me
And fuck u
I don't get why you're swearing and insulting KliPeH just for facts; melee was so buggy and too OP at the point you had no chances against "melee pros". You have also been banned multiple times in many Discord servers for your toxicity and naughty behavior, I don't think you will ever change.
Ah yes, he swears, therefore his points are invalid and he Is bad as a person. Its funny when you run out of valid points you just default To taking the higher ground becuase you are SUCH a respectable person.
Last edited by Rick Sanchez on Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Sh4d0w » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:27 pm

this is a certified Melee FIX 1.3 moment
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:52 pm

KliPeH wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:15 am
Image

Some of the worst memories created from this game stem from having to play like this against all these sweaty-ass, self-proclaimed SFD “pros” in melee-based scenarios. Thank God the game is not like this anymore.
Did you actually just refer to Jaeky as a "sweaty-ass, self-proclaimed SFD melee “pros”" LMAO that's taking your tone a bit far, isn't it?

Did you even read the whole analysis? I clearly said that the double hit move needed some fixing, but I don't think it had to outright be removed, just had to make it counterable.
It's unfortunate that you had such bad memories of this game. Kinda makes you wonder why you kept playing, since your typical attitude today against people like me is: "Don't play then". You do realize that some of the best memories for many people was precisely the high tech skill melee, right?
Look, if you enjoy the simpler melee game more, then that's totally Ok. What isn't ok, is enforcing it onto everyone else, especially people that like playing that style of melee, especially since it was that mobile for at least 3 years in Pre-Alpha state. I myself didn't even use the double hit move, however the mobility nerf even affected me and i immediately felt the change in the game when i bought it.
KliPeH wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:15 am
You made me appreciate the current state of SFD even more.
You know what? I'll come back here in a few months with a video to actually show you how fucking broken the melee in this game is, make you take your words right back and make you want to internally throw up. Since written evidence obviously doesn't suit you, maybe something visual can.


As a side note for you to come here and act like your some kind of expert on this topic (even though i checked your play count which was surprisingly low), and you having admitted in previous posts that you host your own games and play mostly with bots (which let me remind you can't even combo properly) doesn't make you an authority in this matter. I have personally spend more then 1000 hours in this game, so i have roughly 10x more the experience that you have. Don't try and lecture in these things, you know nothing of the current meta of the game.
Odex64 wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:35 pm
I don't get why you're swearing and insulting KliPeH just for facts; melee was so buggy and too OP at the point you had no chances against "melee pros". You have also been banned multiple times in many Discord servers for your toxicity and naughty behavior, I don't think you will ever change.
Let me start of by saying that I don't embrace that kind of language used against other people.
But can you actually tell me what the hell Klipeh said that were actual facts? The only thing he said was that "My worst memories" which is totally subjective. The things i wrote in my analysis are real facts, they aren't subjective and can be proven.
Your also wrong melee is wayyyyyy more buggy today then it was back then. Perhaps you don't play enough?
Last edited by Mighty Spirit the 2 on Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1 x
🎶I will tell your story if you die
I will tell your story and keep you alive the best i can
...
But I've always had the feeling we would die young
Some die young
🎵

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Post by Odex64 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:55 pm

Rick Sanchez wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:21 pm
Odex64 wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:35 pm
Sir Kent wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:47 pm
This is the most bigoted and delusional forum thread I've read so far... Get your head out of your ass, will ya? I'm starting to think Klipeh hasn't even played SFD yet...
This is me stating an opinion btw
Sue me
And fuck u
I don't get why you're swearing and insulting KliPeH just for facts; melee was so buggy and too OP at the point you had no chances against "melee pros". You have also been banned multiple times in many Discord servers for your toxicity and naughty behavior, I don't think you will ever change.
Ah yes, he swears, therefore his points are invalid and he Is bad as a person. Its funny when you run out of valid points you just default To taking the higher ground becuase you are SUCH a respectable person.
I'll be honest, I'm tired of people like you. I won't reply anymore because you misunderstand what I say, plus my post was about the melee was too OP in Beta, and not "taking the higher ground"; whatever..
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Maniac
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Title: Don't really move like a pro
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Post by Maniac » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:28 pm

Yes it's not fun to keep getting beaten by melee fix tryhards all the time. but I'd say if they have explored and tried to master all sorts of possible melee moves in the game and are trying to raise the bar, they're the right critiques of what is wrong and what is not with the current state of melee (with evidence of course rather than stating facts). However the game has come to what it is and nothing can't be changed now. Also whatever a player thinks about the game is entirely subjective. And the devs created the game so i think they have all the rights to do whatever the hell they want with it. because the devs could never have the time to interact with the players and critique the way you have done. You cannot blame them if they didn't update the game to become the utopia for a part of the playerbase. They had to keep up giving updates and patches for 8 years all for free just to receive negativity in the end.
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