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Never seen more laughable and broken melee than this joke.

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RiD
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Re: Never seen more laughable and broken melee than this joke.

Post by RiD » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:13 pm

I had my friend give me this game because I loved and was excited about the idea of ​​big changes in the game, I imagined something like "Great, now that the developers receive something in exchange for this great game they will surely put some amazing things in it." Now the only thing I can do is regret having convinced my friend to buy this game for me. 12.99 Dollars was what SFD cost, with that money he could buy a Terraria 4-Pack along with some popcorn.
I think the main problem in all this was the high expectations we had for the game (including the developers).
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Post by Del Poncho » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:14 pm

WishICouldGetMyMoneyBack wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:29 pm
Well let's be honest. The game was in a much better state than now, that's why we're remuniscing the good times. That also explains why the game is virtually dead compared to when it was in a more "Enjoyable" state.
The game is "virtually dead" because the price scared off most of it's playerbase, which, just as 99% of f2p games, is kids. Kids that very rarely can buy stuff online.
This led to way less servers, which forced people to play in servers further away from them, meaning higher ping, meaning crappier experience. And a crappier experience meant less players, which means less servers, and so on.

Now, even though I was one of the guys complaining on the forum against all those riddicolous combos, I haven't played nearly enough lately to decide wether melee was better before or not. But I can say with a 100% certainty that the current melee system isn't why the game is going silent.
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Post by WishICouldGetMyMoneyBack » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:38 pm

Del Poncho wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:14 pm
WishICouldGetMyMoneyBack wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:29 pm
Well let's be honest. The game was in a much better state than now, that's why we're remuniscing the good times. That also explains why the game is virtually dead compared to when it was in a more "Enjoyable" state.
The game is "virtually dead" because the price scared off most of it's playerbase, which, just as 99% of f2p games, is kids. Kids that very rarely can buy stuff online.
This led to way less servers, which forced people to play in servers further away from them, meaning higher ping, meaning crappier experience. And a crappier experience meant less players, which means less servers, and so on.

Now, even though I was one of the guys complaining on the forum against all those riddicolous combos, I haven't played nearly enough lately to decide wether melee was better before or not. But I can say with a 100% certainty that the current melee system isn't why the game is going silent.
But your statement about the "Kid" etc etc isn't really backed up by anything. Nowadays I see more kids than there were adults before the game went to steam, I remember when it first launched on steam it was packed with old players and it was pretty okaish really. Then things started going downhill and now we're here.

I can most definately assure you, the state of melee and game mechanics is most definately one if not the main factor why the game is really going down.

There is at least 2 or 3 people on servers I joincomplaining about how broken it is. And it is extremely off putting, low ceiling combat is especially the worst. A guy can kick you grab you then dive on you and repeat the same thing 7 times. You can't do sh*t against him and you have to watch yourself get embarassed.

This is intentional? It can't be because if so, then there's a fundemental problem with the whole approach to the game by the devs. Most people I meet on servers always complain about how "broken" the game is, "How unfair" it is, "How frustrating" it is. Man I don't want to upset the devs because I appreciate their time and effort.

But they're unintentionally killing their own game, worst is they don't even play their own game. So they're not in a position to make the right calls to fix the game, they don't seem to listen about melee tweaks they want, grab is most definately a feature that isn't implemented correctly. It's so just janky and inconsistent.
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:46 pm

Del Poncho wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:14 pm
The game is "virtually dead" because the price scared off most of it's playerbase, which, just as 99% of f2p games, is kids. Kids that very rarely can buy stuff online.
This led to way less servers, which forced people to play in servers further away from them, meaning higher ping, meaning crappier experience. And a crappier experience meant less players, which means less servers, and so on.
They should have released a free version i guess?
Del Poncho wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:14 pm
Now, even though I was one of the guys complaining on the forum against all those riddicolous combos, I haven't played nearly enough lately to decide wether melee was better before or not.
After 1000 hours playing this game, trust me it's definitely not better. The combos are way worse then they were in back in the beta.
Del Poncho wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:14 pm
But I can say with a 100% certainty that the current melee system isn't why the game is going silent.
yeah, i agree. Melee is not ONLY the reason the game went downhill, although it did have a significant impact. It was melee combined with the other changes done to the game what turned people off from playing. I know a lot of veterans that bought the game right at the release day, whom no longer play the game after some of the updates. Not all of them were disappointed specifically in melee, they were disappointed more in how versus turned out altogether.
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Post by Del Poncho » Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:31 pm

WishICouldGetMyMoneyBack wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:38 pm
But your statement about the "Kid" etc etc isn't really backed up by anything. Nowadays I see more kids than there were adults before the game went to steam, I remember when it first launched on steam it was packed with old players and it was pretty okaish really. Then things started going downhill and now we're here.
I mean, nothing in this thread is really backed up by anything lol, it's not like we have any data going around.
It's an educated guess, in these 8 years I've been playing, most of the players I met were aged around 12-15. Of course, there were also a lot of adult-ish players like me, but in no way we were the majority.
Also, "old players", wether you mean players that played for years or simply players that are oldish, might leave for the reason I've written. Less servers to play in mean crappier ping, and a worse experience. But yeah, some probably left because of other reasons, melee included, but I doubt that it counted for the majority of the playerbase.

WishICouldGetMyMoneyBack wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:38 pm
low ceiling combat is especially the worst. A guy can kick you grab you then dive on you and repeat the same thing 7 times. You can't do sh*t against him and you have to watch yourself get embarassed.
But hasn't this has been true since jump attacks began throwing you to the ground? I can't honestly remember when this was introduced, but I'm pretty sure it's not something new.
But yeah, sure, I would also like to see it addressed. And if that doesn't happen, well, I guess it's up to map creators to balance their map around that - meaning you shouldn't make a map with low ceiling, to prevent this spam.
WishICouldGetMyMoneyBack wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:38 pm
grab is most definately a feature that isn't implemented correctly. It's so just janky and inconsistent.
I really don't know what you mean with this. Works well with me. I'm a bit conflicted wether I like it or not, but it definitely works as expected with me.
Mighty Spirit the 2 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:46 pm
They should have released a free version i guess?
I completely agree. I feel like this game would've been so much populated with a free version, no matter how limited it would've been.
Most of the playerbase weren't exactly pros, hosts, mapmakers, or whatever - they were just the cannon fodder that filled the servers and made the game feel alive and more genuine. Hell, even if a guy left after playing for only a week, 10 new players would join to take his place, just because it's a free game to try.
Mighty Spirit the 2 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:46 pm
yeah, i agree. Melee is not ONLY the reason the game went downhill, although it did have a significant impact. It was melee combined with the other changes done to the game what turned people off from playing. I know a lot of veterans that bought the game right at the release day, whom no longer play the game after some of the updates. Not all of them were disappointed specifically in melee, they were disappointed more in how versus turned out altogether.
I too don't like some of the latest features, like the drones or the shurikens, but I still feel that the loss of the f2p playerbase did most of the job.
I mean, I remember a time where I could just decide I had half an hour of free time and just hop in, host a server and fill it in 5 minutes, or where Blurry's was always full. Of course, there would be those few old-timey players like me, but most of the playerbase was newbies trying out the game.

Now it kinda feels sad, whenever I host I never reach 8 players, and the few that are there have a riddicolous ping, but I don't ask them to leave just because noone else would join. And it just feels bad to fight someone with 100 ping.
It might be just me, but this is why I don't play this game nearly as much as I did 2 years ago. Not because I don't like some mechanics or whatever, if it was for that I would try to search a way around it via scripts and/or mapmaking, but because it just feels empty.
It's just a dog chasing it's tail, but I really feel a f2p version would breathe new life in the game.
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:47 pm

KliPeH wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:50 pm
You are the same toxic, exclusive people that created restrictive rulesets and partook in made-up “code of honor” systems that were used to be meme’d the hell out of back in the day. That’s laughable.
It’s not Pre-Alpha anymore. It’s an unfortunate truth you‘ll have to accept, eventually. You don’t tailor the game to suit your needs, you either tailor yourself to it or leave it be.
Wow, I'm not the person who came here with that toxic mindset: "If you don't like the game, then leave". I wouldn't have expected you to defend such a mindset either. Every time someone comes with a legit complaint people tell you to leave, it's sad. It leads to no dialog or result and causes only harm because people really do leave, and that leads to even fewer players. But what do you care, you just play with bots anyway, no?
KliPeH wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:50 pm
Wait, SFD is competitive? I was under the impression you could spawn near unavoidable insta-killing hazards and be given random power-weaponry, health pickup and booster items based solely on the game’s whim... that’s not to speak of the random critical hit chance, bullet dodgerolling failure and unmanageable weapon recoil...
I say this because you’re still under the assumption SFD is in any way, shape or form “competitive”.
Superfighters Deluxe is a game. Versus is a "game mode", I believe that is what we are discussing here. Let's see what game modes are competitive here… We have challenges, we have survival, and we have versus. The only game mode I don't count as competitive is campaigns, and even that could be if we had gotten single player achievements. Look, I've tried to say this time and time again. In versus we only get one life to play, if we die we have to wait 2-3 min until we can play again. Everyone wants to play, no one wants to die and wait. The stakes are too high therefore people start playing it competitive. Versus has always been competitive since the dawn of time, adding more chaos and random chance to the game just made it way more frustrating to play because your skill and dedication isn't rewarded properly. If you want to play SuperLuckers Deluxe or SuperRandomshitgoingon Deluxe, then fine, be my guest. Just don't enforce this idea onto everyone who bought the game. If I want to play classic Superfighters Deluxe, shouldn't I be allowed to do that? I paid money for this game, quite a high price might I mention, I paid because I believed in the game's premise and I saw the potential it held. Even these Steam reviews reflect my point:
https://steamcommunity.com/id/pineapple ... ed/855860/
https://steamcommunity.com/id/Tplay200/ ... ed/855860/

Finally it's about the options we players have, the choice to play the game the way we want, not the way a small oligarchy dictates everyone should play, especially people who don't even play the game nearly enough to get an understanding on what these changes ultimately bring. Even Hjarpe supported such an idea:
Hjarpe wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:15 am
Sure, the complaining can be toxic. People have the right to play the game however they want, and "house rules" has been a part of gaming forever.
That’s why people have always pushed for having more game modes in SFD. The people who want to keep playing "classic" versus can go do that, the people who want the new stuff to keep getting pumped into the weapon pool can get another game mode for that, I would call it "Chaotic". (An idea i've had for a while, i will eventually get around to making a post) With just a little effort both sides could have coexisted happily, but no, you had push that part of the community out of the game with your "don't play then" attitude. No wonder the player count dropped hard.
KliPeH wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:50 pm
I don’t think I’m in a position to argue any of the points brought up in this thread as I haven’t played against a single human opponent in months. That said, I firmly believe melee “purists” like yourself forget an entire game exists outside of the little melee-map-rotating, no-grab-enabled, fists-only scope you restrict yourself and your veteran “the game was better in Alpha” friends to.
I'm pretty sure the game's focus is on multiplayer. Bots don't know how to exploit the game design changes from the transition to Steam like human players do. If they could the game would turn into a nightmare. I don't think he's a melee "purist" btw, but I'll let him speak for himself.

KliPeH wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:50 pm
I host my own games so melee never feels delayed or broken to me. I literally never encounter these issues while playing. I don’t see a problem with the existing combos, movesets or dodgerolls. The game is okay. The real issue is how absolutely reliant the game is on good (sub-30) ping, but I don’t think that’s something subject to change so I won’t even bother addressing it.
Maybe you don't know how to exploit melee then, and like I pointed out, neither do bots. So unless you want everybody playing with retard bots in single player and the entire community going offline I would rather fix these issues so people can play together. Also, I was pretty convinced you hated combos. What changed your mind?

KliPeH wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:50 pm
I disregarded @Mighty Spirit the 2 opinion and everything they said up until that point as soon as I read they’re using a no-grab script in their games - that gives me all the information I need to know about the player’s mindset; how they’re stuck in the past playing old game versions trying to shape them into a personal, perfect videogame of their own. You’re disabling an integral part of the game because it doesn’t suit your liking. You want exploits like wall-nailing to make a return despite them clearly being exploits and only contributing to feelings of frustration and hopelessness players get from being stuck in an endless, unavoidable death-sentence of a combo. That’s ridiculous to me.
They? I'm a person not a cosmic being. Jokes aside, it's actually sad that you think you can tell so much of who a person is, just by judging them from one small script they use. I disabled grabs on my server because I didn't want people to get cheap killed left and right (thus not being able to play at all), and I already pointed out how grabs are unfair towards high ping players. No one asked me to reactivate grabs. Besides, I started playing in ALPHA, when grabs were already implemented into the game. I never knew that grabs weren't a part of the game, until one day I played a server with no_grab, and I actually realised why everyone was always crying "grabber". Also every single post or suggestion I have and will come with has been for the good of the game, I wanted the game to succeed, and I still think it holds potential.
I want wall nailing to make a return because it strengthens combo variety. And back in Alpha the "stuck in an endless, unavoidable death-sentence of a combo" was already patched out of the game. Now your mixing memories from years ago when you played with human players, but if you came back and played with actual people who know what they're doing, you will see the exploitative combos that exist now… they're exactly what your describing: "only contributing to feelings of frustration and hopelessness players get from being stuck in an endless, unavoidable death-sentence of a combo".. man, even worse than the original "Double Hit" move. Complete joke game.

KliPeH wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:50 pm
Many new players enjoy the game as is, neither your vocal minority nor your sense of nostalgia are just enough to cause a revert in major changes (and improvements) done to the game since its very early baby years.
This is why he's a vocal minority, I will quote myself here:
Mighty Spirit the 2 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:56 pm
"From what i've heard during my play sessions, most people just lost faith in the game and the developers and they think it's a waste of time trying to argue their viewpoint"
I know a lot of people that could come here and back me up on everything i say, but i know they won't for the reasons mentioned above. I guess i represent all those former players now.
KliPeH wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:50 pm
WishICouldGetMyMoneyBack wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:09 pm
Is that what you're saying? I don't recall anybody or myself saying that the devs have to keep working on the game. They promised planned features, we paid so I think we deserve things we were promised back. That's not to say they have to do it, morally it would be the right thing to deliver what you've promised, don't you thin so?
It’s funny you should speak of the devs’ not following up on their promises as drones (a replacement to turrets?), a shock baton and a chainsaw have all been much-requested features and thus on the to-do list (on the old forum) from the early Pre-Alpha stages of the game. I myself had to remove countless threads (on the new forum) asking for these specific features because a Planned Feature thread was already up for them. There were even to-do features that were requested by the community they scrapped due to the community’s backlash - grenade and debris contact damage, for example, which I personally was especially fond of.
Good, implement those suggestions into the "chaotic" game mode which doesn't have to be balanced at all.
KliPeH wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:50 pm
The devs do listen to you, and you ignoring that - and the progress they’ve made throughout the years - is a true disservice to them in my opinion.
It's true that they used to listen and took our opinions into consideration. I don't see the same attitude nowadays, unless you take the massive complaints on drones they got.
Last edited by Mighty Spirit the 2 on Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:28 pm

Del Poncho wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:31 pm
WishICouldGetMyMoneyBack wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:38 pm
low ceiling combat is especially the worst. A guy can kick you grab you then dive on you and repeat the same thing 7 times. You can't do sh*t against him and you have to watch yourself get embarassed.
But hasn't this has been true since jump attacks began throwing you to the ground? I can't honestly remember when this was introduced, but I'm pretty sure it's not something new.
I'm not sure were all this confusion comes from, but no it definitely wasn't true before. After they added recovery rolls they also changed when you can roll after getting knocked down, these posts all address that issue:
Lunatic wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:50 pm
The silly thing about the current recovery roll system is that it doesn't really fix what people have a problem with in the first place - cheesy, abusive combos. The running gag me and my friends have going is that "you can only recovery roll when you have nothing to recover from". Recovery rolls gained the ability to dodge grabs when rolling away from the grabber, but lost the ability to do so when hit by an aerial punch. This defeats the whole damn purpose!
Shock wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:45 pm
3.Recovery roll - why wouldn't player roll after he falls into stunning from punches or jumpkicking? He was able to do it, until it just were deleted from this game. It really helps you a lot when someone chasing you or while spamming, you can at least escape.

It's getting worse through the updates, i am sorry, i just still can't believe these good game mechanics became an dark side of Superfighters Deluxe.
I don't understand why so few people have taken this up before, it's a REAL PROBLEM. I guess a lot of people didn't study melee properly before but the fact is a skilled player back in beta 1.02c could escape 90% of combos thrown at him, (SV) Danvie really impressed me in that way. No matter how hard i tried i couldn't grab combo him, man that dude was on another level. I guess it was kinda obscure thing to learn, and that just shows how much higher the skill ceiling before was. Thank you Danvie, where ever you are, for showing me the light. I'll eventually get around to making a video covering all the melee changes i guess..
Nowadays the game is spoon-feeding people combos which output ridiculous damage, the worst thing is they require no skill at all, its all about who lands the first dive or the first attack and then your stuck in the loop.
Del Poncho wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:31 pm
But yeah, sure, I would also like to see it addressed. And if that doesn't happen, well, I guess it's up to map creators to balance their map around that - meaning you shouldn't make a map with low ceiling, to prevent this spam.
Like Helipad is a joke map... Down in the air shaft, you can kill anybody no matter how many years he played just by comboing them to death. I disable that map on my server
Del Poncho wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:31 pm
I completely agree. I feel like this game would've been so much populated with a free version, no matter how limited it would've been.
Most of the playerbase weren't exactly pros, hosts, mapmakers, or whatever - they were just the cannon fodder that filled the servers and made the game feel alive and more genuine. Hell, even if a guy left after playing for only a week, 10 new players would join to take his place, just because it's a free game to try.
At least 10 New Players... And now you bring up something that i think was never really discussed, even though such a topic was inevitable, when you make a game paid, suddenly New Players will no longer be able to find people to play on their own level, especially when the entrance fee was so high. They end up getting destroyed and the veterans are bored. Adding crazy weapons in versus didn't exactly help make matters better, it frustrated me more tbh.
Del Poncho wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:31 pm
Now it kinda feels sad, whenever I host I never reach 8 players, and the few that are there have a ridiculous ping, but I don't ask them to leave just because no one else would join. And it just feels bad to fight someone with 100 ping.
I can relate, i feel like a real scumbag fighting melee with my 1 ping. heck, i've played on american servers with red ping, and you can't do shit. I was also able to beat hosts at melee back in the day, but now thanks to the removal of being able to cancel attacks with rolling, no more. I get rekt real hard. I usually host dedicated and don't play.
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Post by Nebraska4 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:39 pm

I don't think it's really necessary to have the super long posts, if you don't like the game then the game isn't for you. You don't have to try to ruin other's experiences. It's just like getting a book; you take a chance with your money and hope you'll like the book. The same has always been true for games. You don't like SFD, that's okay! You don't have to play it. After all, it really is just ten bucks, in the grand scheme of things it's not that much especially compared to books and in-store game copies like in the early days of computing. I think that considering California is on fire and there's a global pandemic with millions left dead, and many a corrupt government around the world, the last thing we should be caring about is you raging about wasting a measly ten bucks on a video game you don't particularly enjoy.
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Post by Odex64 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:31 pm

I think this topic is going too far
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Post by Vitamin E » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:46 am

I can see that you care enough about this game to make a detailed post on the forum and so I would be interested to hear what improvements you would suggest be made to make the game better.
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Post by WishICouldGetMyMoneyBack » Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:52 am

RiD wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:13 pm
I had my friend give me this game because I loved and was excited about the idea of ​​big changes in the game, I imagined something like "Great, now that the developers receive something in exchange for this great game they will surely put some amazing things in it." Now the only thing I can do is regret having convinced my friend to buy this game for me. 12.99 Dollars was what SFD cost, with that money he could buy a Terraria 4-Pack along with some popcorn.
I think the main problem in all this was the high expectations we had for the game (including the developers).
Huge expectations and utter massive dissapointment.
Odex64 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:31 pm
I think this topic is going too far
it isn't
Vitamin E wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:46 am
I can see that you care enough about this game to make a detailed post on the forum and so I would be interested to hear what improvements you would suggest be made to make the game better.
It's not even the game, I couldn't give a damn where this game is going. I'm wasting my time writing here because of my money really. Yeah I spend 12 pounds may be nothing to you and honestly it's nothing to me too; but unfortunately I spent money on this joke. It's crazy how this actually demands this much.

5 dollars I'd be like whatever for over 10 is a bit greedy for this game. Should of left it free, maybe it would of become something by now.
Last edited by KliPeH on Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged triple post.
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Post by Vitamin E » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:32 pm

I don’t blame you for feeling how you feel. If I were you, I would feel exactly as you do. The 12 pounds you spent on this game were absolutely wasted and this game is a massive disappointment. Have you considered refunding the game? You can still refund a game on Steam if you have played more than 2 hours of gameplay.
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Gurt
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Post by Gurt » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:52 pm

The original author of this topic has shared his thoughts what he thinks about the game.

If you have played the game for hundres of hours and only see the flaws in the game now and forgotten why you played it in the first place - it's time to move on or take a lengthy break. Play something else for a while.

I see some hints of ad hominem and confirmation bias among the comments and some passive agressive hints and some destructive critisism. Also, don't try to project your oppinions onto others as being facts.

This topic isn't going anywhere constructive and the author has clearly stated that he doesn't give a damn either.

Locking this topic.
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