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What's the point of power weapons?

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Pricey
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Re: What's the point of power weapons?

Post by Pricey » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:08 am

This game just wouldn't be what it is without the power weapons that we have, they add more depth to the weapon pool and also gives players another aspect of the game to learn and develop their skills in. While all the power weapons are very good, they all have their weaknesses, bazookas have RNG swerve, grenade launchers have limited range and an arc that needs to be accounted for, M60s have an unforgiving spray pattern which makes it less effective from long range, and chainsaws are suckers to fire and anything you can throw at it.

In addition to this, power weapons add the most important aspect of a video game to SFD, fun. Imagine if the tommygun was the best weapon in the game? Boring.

Power weapons also have very low spawn chances:
  • Chainsaws have a 2.76% chance of dropping from a melee weapon crate.
  • M60s, bazookas, GLs and Snipers all have a 3.9% chance of dropping from a rifle crate.
Obviously, these chances become even slimmer when you break a ? supply crate. These chances are low enough so that they don't spawn every game, but high enough so that they will see action frequently. Let's also not forget what these are, percentages, you could theoretically get 100 bazookas in a row, or go 100 rounds without seeing one. Yes, it is not uncommon for a player to pull two or more power weapons in a round, but the chances are the same for everyone.
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Post by Lunatic » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:27 pm

"oh man this chaotic game that baseline has some pretty OP stuff that happens randomly, regularly, and on the fly, has all these other weapons that are powerful and designed to be game-changers! these weapons kill a lot better than normal rifles, handguns, and melee weapons! i want them gone!!! also please remove runner grabber camper and noober thanks i only host on melle island NO CHAINSAW OR BAN"

You're playing SFD, the game designed around being a passive opportunist that takes advantage of everything you can possibly get your hands on. There is no honor, there is only luck, skill, and winning. If your luck runs out, skill it out. You can dodge rockets, you can run from an M60, you can hide from a sniper rifle. Camp on a portal, throw shit everywhere, open more boxes, run. SFD is by nature not a competitive game. SFD is the equivalent of playing smash bros with items on. If you want a competitive environment designed around people winning based on skill alone then play in a fucking square box with only fists, 1v1. It's legit the most bland and uninspired way to play SFD, but that's what it sounds like you want - the perfectly balanced and fair fight possible, in a game designed around being as unfair as you possibly can so you can win.

If you want power weapons balanced, you're in the wrong place playing the wrong game. I was, at one point, working on a game-balance mod that would even out most of the weapons and make them all functionally unique, but I've since given up on that due to being unable to reach all of the game parameters required to facilitate such a mod. Just give up on competitive and balanced SFD and take it for what it is. If you hate power weapons so bad, get a script that changes weapon spawn chances such that it removes power weapons from the pool. That's the only way to knock them out, since the devs aren't going to remove a significant portion of the game just because you've decided you don't like a portion of the weapon pool - especially not the portion that actually has most of the creativity and uniqueness compared to a large portion of the weapon pool being functionally identical.
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Post by Pregnant » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:50 am

I think he got it guys lol no need to repeat the same thing with different words over and over
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Post by mgtr14 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:52 am

Gurt wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:03 am
Weapons in SFD isn't supposed to be balanced. Some weapons are more powerful (by design) than others and some doesn't spawn as often than others. Some weapons should make you want to stay out of melee range (like the chainsaw / shock-baton). Not everything in the game should gravitate towards melee-fights and sometimes only having fists to fight with won't get you far.
Saying that a weapon is "OP" is individual opinions. If you would like to see some sort of change to a certain weapon bring that up in a separate topic. Don't just say "Power weapons are OP and the developers should remove them". Remember that the tables will turn and sometimes you will be holding the power weapons.

Many things are situational. Someone with low HP will have a hard time against spray-and-pray weapons like the Uzi. Is the Uzi overpowered now? You can always find a situation where an item will be better suited than others and impossible to deal with - but that's not a valid reason for us (the developers) why we should remove the item.

Presentation is EVERYTHING when bringing up ideas. Sell us your idea WHY something should be changed and HOW and WHY it makes the game better. Important of course is that your ideas align with our vision of the game.
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Edit: My comment wasn't a reply to anyone specific in this thread but to the community in general when discussions about weapons are brought up.
This topic was made for discussing power weapons, that's it. I do have some suggestions which I may do a thread about. But since people somehow don't understand what I mean or have even said, it would probably be pointless.

Again, no, I don't want the game to be "melee only" or anything like that. I don't even know where you got that from. I've said that there are better ways to do what power weapons do. I didn't argue from a "situational" viewpoint, I just think that we can have other unique weapons instead of powerful weapons. For example, a good weapon that was talked about would be the whip melee weapon. The main feature is the ability to steal guns from the other player's hands. So what do you do against that? You can try to melee them, you can use explosives instead, you can shoot from an angle they can't hit(Above, below), throw, etc. That changes the dynamic, it has counters but it's still powerful when used right.

Even the shock baton is a good weapon, a fair one to fight and one that can be fun to use. The stun doesn't work when it knocks down your opponent, so if you jump around then you will most likely not get stunned. What can the wielder do? He can try faking you out, maybe kicking you over and hitting you while you stand up, combo into a normal swing, anything. It changes the point of the melee fight, either you will be the one dodging and jumping around, or you will be trying to land precise hits and punish them. If you just keep hitting them without stunning, then it's a worse version of the police baton. Or, you could shoot them, throw, etc, as usual.
A chainsaw however, you can just run from it. If someone is chasing you, you won't have time to use grenades or a flamethrower, weapons that people think can counter it. You could throw, but if the opponent knows how to block then you may not hit them at all. A revved up chainsaw will deflect any bullets, so shooting them is pointless. There isn't much you can do against someone with a chainsaw but run or kill them quickly when they don't have it out. That's why the chainsaw is (IMO) not fun to fight against, nor fun to fight with.
Pricey wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:08 am
This game just wouldn't be what it is without the power weapons that we have, they add more depth to the weapon pool and also gives players another aspect of the game to learn and develop their skills in. While all the power weapons are very good, they all have their weaknesses, bazookas have RNG swerve, grenade launchers have limited range and an arc that needs to be accounted for, M60s have an unforgiving spray pattern which makes it less effective from long range, and chainsaws are suckers to fire and anything you can throw at it.

In addition to this, power weapons add the most important aspect of a video game to SFD, fun. Imagine if the tommygun was the best weapon in the game? Boring.

Power weapons also have very low spawn chances:
  • Chainsaws have a 2.76% chance of dropping from a melee weapon crate.
  • M60s, bazookas, GLs and Snipers all have a 3.9% chance of dropping from a rifle crate.
Obviously, these chances become even slimmer when you break a ? supply crate. These chances are low enough so that they don't spawn every game, but high enough so that they will see action frequently. Let's also not forget what these are, percentages, you could theoretically get 100 bazookas in a row, or go 100 rounds without seeing one. Yes, it is not uncommon for a player to pull two or more power weapons in a round, but the chances are the same for everyone.
You haven't read what I've said.
There isn't much to learn about power weapons, it may even do the opposite. It seems like Moadam relies on power weapons instead of getting better at the game, which is the opposite of learning. The weaknesses you mentioned aren't that bad at all, almost nullified because of how small maps are or that you won't even be that far away from your opponent. The bazookas rocket swerve won't do much if you can get close to your opponent, if your opponent can't hit you from afar, has no guns, etc. The arc of the grenade launcher lets you shoot it at more specific locations sometimes, but it can make it fall short of targets that are... on the other side of the map. Again, same thing with the M60, get closer. Same thing with chainsaw. Your opponent won't stay where he is if you approach with a power weapon.

As for fun, we could have more unique weapons instead. The flare gun is a good example, flares counts as projectiles so you can't dodge/block them. It can keep someone from trying to melee you, and it can push your opponent down somewhere, etc. The counter? Throwing, shooting, maybe even fighting while on fire if you have enough hp, etc.

No, the low spawn chances don't really balance it out for me, it just means that random people at random times will get it and kill other players easily.
Lunatic wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:27 pm
"oh man this chaotic game that baseline has some pretty OP stuff that happens randomly, regularly, and on the fly, has all these other weapons that are powerful and designed to be game-changers! these weapons kill a lot better than normal rifles, handguns, and melee weapons! i want them gone!!! also please remove runner grabber camper and noober thanks i only host on melle island NO CHAINSAW OR BAN"
You haven't read what I said.
Lunatic wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:27 pm
You're playing SFD, the game designed around being a passive opportunist that takes advantage of everything you can possibly get your hands on. There is no honor, there is only luck, skill, and winning. If your luck runs out, skill it out. You can dodge rockets, you can run from an M60, you can hide from a sniper rifle. Camp on a portal, throw shit everywhere, open more boxes, run. SFD is by nature not a competitive game. SFD is the equivalent of playing smash bros with items on. If you want a competitive environment designed around people winning based on skill alone then play in a fucking square box with only fists, 1v1. It's legit the most bland and uninspired way to play SFD, but that's what it sounds like you want - the perfectly balanced and fair fight possible, in a game designed around being as unfair as you possibly can so you can win.
I'm not aiming for a competitive game, SFD can be just as chaotic and fun without power weapons, granted we do add other unique weapons that do what power weapons did (Change the dynamic and being fun to use). I don't want "1v1 fists only", I just think we can add better weapons.
No, you can't dodge rockets if your opponent is good. A sniper rifle is fine, it's blockable/dodgeable and it has a low fire rate.
Anyways, the counters you mentioned don't sound that fun. Camping a portal sounds boring and probably brings about a stalemate, if that's the only counter you can think of then it doesn't sound like fun to fight those weapons. I didn't ask for a "completely fair" balance, just less powerful weapons that can still change the dynamic and be fun.
Lunatic wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:27 pm
If you want power weapons balanced, you're in the wrong place playing the wrong game. I was, at one point, working on a game-balance mod that would even out most of the weapons and make them all functionally unique, but I've since given up on that due to being unable to reach all of the game parameters required to facilitate such a mod. Just give up on competitive and balanced SFD and take it for what it is. If you hate power weapons so bad, get a script that changes weapon spawn chances such that it removes power weapons from the pool. That's the only way to knock them out, since the devs aren't going to remove a significant portion of the game just because you've decided you don't like a portion of the weapon pool - especially not the portion that actually has most of the creativity and uniqueness compared to a large portion of the weapon pool being functionally identical.
Again, I don't want a competitive SFD, I think it would be better with better unique weapons. It would still be as chaotic and dynamic.
There IS a script that removes power weapons, but I can't host anyways, not even without port forwarding.
I don't think power weapons are a significant portion of the game at all. Just disable them, you still have the chaotic and dynamic SFD like before. 4 Power weapons won't dent that. I didn't decide to "just dislike" power weapons, I'm saying that we could make better unique weapons. We could make the existing guns more distinct in some ways, you used to propose stat changes and I'm sure you still can.
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Post by RickAvory » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:43 pm

Why is this still being disucessed... I thought we came up with a solution. Add a slider in the host menu that allows the host to manipulate the spawn chances of weapons. If the host doesn’t want these weapons, they won’t let them spawn. If the PLAYER doesn’t like the fact that there are no power weapons, they leave and find another sever and vice versa. If you find no server that fits your style, then you host!
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Post by Hjarpe » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:38 pm

I can't imagine SFD being as fun without power weapons, but each to his own. Weapon spawn chance sliders à la Worms is something we've discussed in the past. It seems a natural fit for the game, it's just a matter of finding the time to do it... We'll see!
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Post by KliPeH » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:27 pm

Hjarpe wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:38 pm
I can't imagine SFD being as fun without power weapons, but each to his own. Weapon spawn chance sliders à la Worms is something we've discussed in the past. It seems a natural fit for the game, it's just a matter of finding the time to do it... We'll see!
Can custom weapon spawn settings have their own UI element in the server browser? Maybe a little wrench symbol signifying the default settings have been tweaked? I really wouldn't want to pick a server after browsing the list for a few minutes and/or waiting for an open slot only to find power weapons have been disabled.
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Post by Hjarpe » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:37 pm

KliPeH wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:27 pm
Can custom weapon spawn settings have their own UI element in the server browser? Maybe a little wrench symbol signifying the default settings have been tweaked? I really wouldn't want to pick a server after browsing the list for a few minutes and/or waiting for an open slot only to find power weapons have been disabled.
We would have to add some sort of notification, yeah. Let's be clear though: this isn't a prioritized feature. But we're thinking about all kinds of things.
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Post by Iliyan » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:40 pm

Omg i gust dicovered wy i like sfd so much its literaly a Worms game but with Terminator like fighter and a retro tuch from my childhood cartridge console era.
But back to the power weps, must say that i whant them in the game because i whant new players to have a chance to win or gust die teribly because the accidenty shot the floor and die in a explosion hahahahahahha-------->countles times men, im laughing so hard at the moment right now remembering.

Remember campaign no power weps there
Remember melee servers no power weps there
Maybe we will see no Power weps servers next, scripts are all powerfull
To each his own
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Post by Rick Sanchez » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:07 am

Lunatic wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:27 pm
"oh man this chaotic game that baseline has some pretty OP stuff that happens randomly, regularly, and on the fly, has all these other weapons that are powerful and designed to be game-changers! these weapons kill a lot better than normal rifles, handguns, and melee weapons! i want them gone!!! also please remove runner grabber camper and noober thanks i only host on melle island NO CHAINSAW OR BAN"
Step 1 of how to downplay criticism
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Post by KliPeH » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:57 am

Rick Sanchez wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:07 am
Lunatic wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:27 pm
"oh man this chaotic game that baseline has some pretty OP stuff that happens randomly, regularly, and on the fly, has all these other weapons that are powerful and designed to be game-changers! these weapons kill a lot better than normal rifles, handguns, and melee weapons! i want them gone!!! also please remove runner grabber camper and noober thanks i only host on melle island NO CHAINSAW OR BAN"
Step 1 of how to downplay criticism
Yeah, after that I'm afraid you'll have to resort to reading the rest of the post.

I do think it's a pretty good example of what people who create special "rules" for their games sound like. Not necessarily relevant to the thread, but players who are opposed to using power weapons due to "honor" - "this weapon kills too fast hence there is no challenge in using it hence I will not use it to give my opponent a chance and will expect them to do the same" - are usually the same ones who complain about grabbing, "spamming", "camping", "running" etc.

It's a toxic mindset.
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Post by Hjarpe » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:15 am

Sure, the complaining can be toxic. People have the right to play the game however they want, and "house rules" has been a part of gaming forever. But the "intended" way to play is to use every tool in the box, and if you limit yourself to just a few, don't expect the game or other players to comply to the same limitations.
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Post by Sh4d0w » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:47 am

Hjarpe wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:15 am
[...]the "intended" way to play is to use every tool in the box[...]
that's why i kick/ban every single player whenever i lose

But yeah, complaining can be toxic and we can't really change it. We just need to use everything we got and ignore the complains about the lack of honor. Survival is the most important thing in SFD, after all.
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Post by Del Poncho » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:04 pm

Sh4d0w wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:47 am
Survival is the most important thing in SFD, after all.
Wrong.
Looking cool while stuff explode around you, is the most important thing in SFD.
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Post by Sh4d0w » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:34 pm

Del Poncho wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:04 pm
Looking cool while stuff explode around you, is the most important thing in SFD.
God dammit, Poncho, you ruined my plans once again.
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