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A step towards a better community: Introducing the Scrub

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Re: A step towards a better community: Introducing the Scrub

Post by Bill » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:15 am

Lunatic wrote:What is a drop kick, exactly? I've heard you use this term a lot but the only way I can imagine a dropkick in SFD is quite literally falling and kicking.

Now, if we had a literal dropkick... That would be great.
If I told you how my move set works then you could counter it/make it less unique. Just ask someone like Jin or Elite who are very good players and they'll admit(at least Jin) that my drop kicks are supreme.
Don't think either I just fall and kick, thats like the most basic kick you can do.
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Post by KliPeH » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:39 am

Lunatic wrote:[...] What I mean is, melee has poor methods of approach and chasing once you actually get on top of someone, so it makes it difficult to kill someone with melee when they have a gun since it's easier to get away with a gun than it is to keep up with melee. I don't necessarily want melee to win every time so much as give it a chance to get onto and keep on someone that has a gun. That said, the only time I ever really get a good chance to melee someone 1v1 is when we run out of ammo and I think my health/weapon will allow me to win.
Exactly that. The problem is that chasing a ranged player with a melee weapon is never a good idea with stamina enabled, no matter how weak their weapon is or how fast you manage to get close to them. It doesn't matter how strong your weapon is because the energy spent chasing an opponent is the energy you don't spend on attacking your opponent, while they use their stamina to kite you and shoot you from afar. It's not that melee weaponry is inneffective, it literally is USELESS if you don't manage to disarm them or find a ranged weapon of your own (and I doubt you want it to be useless since you introduced the bullet-blocking mechanic, and have a melee system in the first place). Even if you do manage to land a few hits, spending the entire stamina bar, they can still simply walk away, and probably cause you more damage than you dealt to them.

I see how
Gurt wrote:Being in hip fire or manual aiming will drastically slow down energy recharge rate or stop it.
Shooting will temporarily stop all energy recharge for some time and also drain energy (the recoil from the weapon must be managed which drains energy which can be different depending on the weapon). Shooting with a weapon drains energy and it won't recharge until you stop aiming. This will give people trying to catch up a better chance and players shooting a lot harder to get away.
will balance melee vs. ranged combat, but it'll make the game way less fun in my opinion. It'd make battles much slower and limit attack possibilities yet again, this time with ranged weapons. You said the game isn't aiming to be realistic, nor will you go towards making it "fair". Instead of nerfing the ranged weapons to ground-level with melee weaponry, buff melee attacks so they don't drain your stamina (even if they stop stamina regen) and stamina is solely used as a means to escape/avoid an unwanted situation.
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Post by The Reptile » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:54 am

Gurt wrote:There seem to be this unspoken rule that if you only have melee you must run towards someone aiming at you with a gun? I promise, there is no such rule in the game. But sometimes you must if you don't have map control so it can hurt (but who is to blame if you put yourself in a corner and let all the map control to your opponent?).

Hjarpe and I have been thinking about this for some time and came up with an idea that will introduce energy management while shooting.
Being in hip fire or manual aiming will drastically slow down energy recharge rate or stop it.
Shooting will temporarily stop all energy recharge for some time and also drain energy (the recoil from the weapon must be managed which drains energy which can be different depending on the weapon). Shooting with a weapon drains energy and it won't recharge until you stop aiming. This will give people trying to catch up a better chance and players shooting a lot harder to get away.
Maybe manual aiming should gradually start draining energy too...
Yeah, completely agree with that point!
To Lunatic: So here you assume whole point of our clan to be scrubs? Don't you remember BOD times when you was a scrub? Don't you remember v 1.3.1? Who was telling he can't counter side to side? Maybe it was you, mang?
So don't do this dirty moves you are doing now, you basically made a topic to your own profit because now melee is nerfed and run n' gun is op.
By KliPeH
"[...]but it'll make the game way less fun in my opinion. It'd make battles much slower and limit attack possibilities yet again, this time with ranged weapons. You said the game isn't aiming to be realistic, nor will you go towards making it "fair". Instead of nerfing the ranged weapons to ground-level with melee weaponry, buff melee attacks so they don't drain your stamina (even if they stop stamina regen) and stamina is solely used as a means to escape/avoid an unwanted situation."
I don't think game balance should be considered to less fun, because fun is random things and less common, i mean run and gun and melee problem is a common thing. You can't just overhaul it to be FUN, it is like to set random jump value, or ,for example, make you character fall for no reason sometimes because he broke his toe.
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Post by Lunatic » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:05 am

Yeah I'm not catching your entire point and I'm not sure you're grasping what I mean, Reptile. Regardless of past actions, I've changed. With a new forum comes the perfect opportunity for the community to turn a new leaf and let go of past sins to grow into something better. Blaming losses on "stupid strategies" and ridiculing the opponent for doing something you don't agree with (camping/running) is, as defined in the OP, scrub behavior. I will admit my losses when I make poor decisions, but I will still outline perceived flaws in the system in an attempt to help the development of the game as well. It's definitely a thin line.

I think what KliPeH is stating is correct - Further incurring stamina penalties on aiming/shooting will probably hinder the game and make it even slower. Buffing melee is still the best course of action. If there's going to be gunning changes, I'd recommend faster stamina drain/slower stamina regen - one or both. Cutting out stamina loss on melee attacks would also help. In this fashion we aren't slowing down the game and it adds a new layer of tactical depth - Do I keep my gun out while I run around so I can shoot as soon as I see an opportunity, or do I put it away as I run around and draw as needed? Stamina management is a really big deal in this game and little changes will go a big distance.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by Bill » Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:15 pm

Wait, wait. "Buffing Melee" you honestly think thats the best actions you could think of as revamping the system of melee? For starters, melee is already overpowered.
The sprinting stamina drain needs /decreased/
There needs to be a jet stream feature where you can catch up to running opponents.
Guns need drop off damage(omit Sniper Rifle)
Nerf chairs

My honest opinion on this matter after playing the game for a while now is, you people must suck (bantering, I know). I've not once complained about "Running n' Gunning" but you must realize this is a skill-based game already. You can already dodge most shots just my a series of rolls and dives and if you ever find cover you can wait wait for the gunner to come to you.(the tactic here is if you land the ground-pound or kick when they jump on or besides your cover you'll disarm them. Then you do the good ol' lefty-righty punches so they cant' run)
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Post by Billy » Wed May 11, 2016 9:44 am

You could add more possibilitys in melee instead of nerfing guns (and if yo nerf them, might firing a weapon with no stamina could push you back instead of not firing)
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Post by Lunatic » Thu May 12, 2016 9:07 am

Like melee with no stamina, I'm willing to bet you can fire your gun when you're out of stamina as well. The downside is not having the energy to sprint when you're done. Luckily, there's no cooldown to recover your stamina when you drain past 0, so you'll start getting it back right away.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by LuckyLucas » Thu May 12, 2016 7:08 pm

Well to be honest you expect too much from people here;
Teenagers who smoke or drink will not stop even if you ask them to.
People who use rude language towards other players will not stop doing so, even if you ask them to stop.
Players will not switch their tactics of how they play just because you ask them to.

You expect too much from people, just asking them to change wont make them change, idiots will be idiots.
You wrote a huge post that most likely not even 20% of the community will ever see because most of them are probably not even on this forum, don't speak English or wouldn't bother to read your post, and they wouldn't change in the slightest, so, without me trying to be disrespectful, your 'step towards a better community' was completely futile and it will not change anything.
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Post by Lunatic » Fri May 13, 2016 2:52 pm

Jokes on you, I actively attempted to better the community and a lot of people read it. It might not be the entire playerbase, but it's an amount of people, and with that you have change. Subtle things, perhaps, but change.

People will be people (aka assholes and idiots) no matter what you do. This is in our nature, as is the competitive drive to win, and war. Fighting nature is difficult, yet easily won. You don't have to go out and change others; you need only change yourself. The first step towards fixing yourself is realizing there's a problem; welcome to the first step towards a better community. Leave your shoes at the door, please.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by LuckyLucas » Fri May 13, 2016 6:26 pm

Lunatic wrote:Jokes on you, I actively attempted to better the community and a lot of people read it. It might not be the entire playerbase, but it's an amount of people, and with that you have change. Subtle things, perhaps, but change.

People will be people (aka assholes and idiots) no matter what you do. This is in our nature, as is the competitive drive to win, and war. Fighting nature is difficult, yet easily won. You don't have to go out and change others; you need only change yourself. The first step towards fixing yourself is realizing there's a problem; welcome to the first step towards a better community. Leave your shoes at the door, please.
'People will be people (aka assholes and idiots) no matter what you do.' Thanks for stating what I said
'Fighting nature is difficult, yet easily won.' What, so is it easy or difficult to win against nature?
'You don't have to go out and change others; you need only change yourself.' So why'd you write this post?

Ok well I wrote a huge reply that did not save because I clicked on preview and the internet was down so I lost everything.
So instead of giving up I will write the short version of why this topic annoyed me, and please don't think that this is some sort of attack, I'm just stating my opinion.
I don't like your post because of how you expect people to change, yes people will always swear even if you ask them politely to stop, and while I do not like people who can't control their emotions, what really annoys me about this post is how you are forcing your opinions on others. I hate runners and campers.
Runners run away from an endgame situation and just waste everyone's time, which is incredibly annoying.
Campers are too cowardly to actually play the game and just hide until the round is over, forever defending their territory.
While I do hate these type of players, I do not type into chat 'RUNNER' and 'CAMPER.' I just play the game and deal with it.
I much prefer a good game where let's say both players have around the same health and fight 1v1, whether it's melee or guns I don't care, as long as they don't run away it's good.
You are so self righteous because you are forcing others to play how you want them to, which is to 'do anything to win' even if that means being a backstabbing cheeky cunt.

It's more fun to play a game and properly earn your victory by not using scumbag methods.

How about you play the game how you want to play, and I play how I want to play.

I am a quite tired and I am aware that this post is a bit tedious so I will summarise it all here:

1) I do not like players who use bad language towards other players, but you asking them to 'stop being scrubs' is a futile attempt and nothing will change them, especially the raging Russian and the Caps only Spaniard. Don't expect that you really changed anyone.

2) As I said, what I really don't like about your topic is you forcing others to accustom to your play style. You can be a 'runner' and 'camper' all you like, but If I want to play a fair and good game, I will do so, and not do whatever it takes to win (especially them dive kickers). I want to feel like I truly deserved the win. You asking or more or less demanding others to play differently is a dickhead move.

I will say this again, I don't have anything against you but your post was quite stupid with the whole point of 'Wash your mind clean and start anew. No more name calling, no more "codes of honor". Just a simple goal: Win. Do whatever it takes.'

I honestly think you're the one who needs to git gud because I have never found myself at a real disadvantage in this game, I play extremely fair without being a runner, camper etc, I only found myself at disadvantages when I'm in an open area and the enemy has a grenade launcher or rpg.
Other players including myself will have fun playing this game how we want to.
Last edited by LuckyLucas on Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Gurt » Fri May 13, 2016 6:51 pm

You expect too much from people, just asking them to change wont make them change, idiots will be idiots.
Asking anyone to change will probably not change them but explaining WHY they should change and share opinions, now we're getting somewhere. As Lunatic pointed out, scrubs are (in my understanding) players that make up mental rules that the game doesn't enforce. Drop the mental rules and restrictions (like no running, gunning in melee or whatever). Nothing stops you from camping or running in SFD and it might save your life at some point so you can win in the end.

If you (for example) want to only use melee against some opponent then that's fine but don't expect the opponent to only use melee when fighting you. He might run away and draw his gun and kill you with it. Now you might said he broke the melee-only rule and was a runner - but that's OK. SFD doesn't have any rule limiting you from A: running away or B: using guns. :D

It is very valid to keep running and camping (even if that can be boring to watch and slow down the game).
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Post by KliPeH » Fri May 13, 2016 8:17 pm

LuckyLucas wrote:It's more fun to play a game and properly earn your victory by not using scumbag methods.
It's funny how your whole post revolves around Lunatic "forcing people to play his way", yet you make arbitrary rules to win a game "properly" without using so-called "scumbag methods". Who gets to decide what's a "proper" way to win? Who decides what "scumbag moves" are? You? Who are you to tell me how to play?

I'll quote Lunatic's OP to support my statement;
Lunatic wrote:In games in general, we're fighting to win. There is no arbitrary ruleset, no forced "melee" or anti-running measures. The game does not know who's "being a noob", only who's winning. [...]
You win by killing the other players. By being the last one to stay alive, by having your name displayed right before the big, shiny "is the winner" phrase. By scoring a point towards your win-counter, rather than scoring one towards the loss-counter. That is all. The developers never put any anti-camping restrictions, or anti-running mechanics (stamina is there to mitigate the 'issue', not remove it entirely) in CQC brawls. You hate players for trying to survive and reach the goal of the game? You hate them for ruining your fun, yet you don't let them have theirs?

You have no right to say what's a "proper" way to play the game. Partially because you're not a dev, or have anything to do with the game's development, and partially because there is no way to play "properly". There's only "playing", it really is as simple as that. Whether you challenge people to fight you in melee, or run away at the first sign of danger, or defend your "territory" by staying in cover and keeping other players away from it. You're just another player wanting to win, but as Lunatic said, your "code of honor" ("I won't run/camp because that's cowardly") is bullshit and if you genuinely think less of people who play differently than you, you're a moron.

That's Lunatic's post in a nutshell. While I agree that he won't change how this playerbase behaves, he might be able to convince other players not to act the way you do right now. Even if one player became self aware of their behavior, his job was done well in my opinion. As the title of the thread states, dropping these idiotic "my way is better than his" arguments WILL eventually lead to a more mature, more player-friendly, and a generally better community. You hate people because they are able to judge the situation accordingly and don't let you kill them that easily? Don't be ridiculous.
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Post by LuckyLucas » Fri May 13, 2016 9:04 pm

KliPeH wrote:
LuckyLucas wrote:It's more fun to play a game and properly earn your victory by not using scumbag methods.
It's funny how your whole post revolves around Lunatic "forcing people to play his way", yet you make arbitrary rules to win a game "properly" without using so-called "scumbag methods". Who gets to decide what's a "proper" way to win? Who decides what "scumbag moves" are? You? Who are you to tell me how to play?
Sigh I would like to keep this short as I really just don't care about this post enough, If you read a little bit you would notice that I said that players are free to play how they want, I don't have a 'code of honour' I said I prefer to go for the melee kill because that's just how I play, melee is good because as they are about to shoot and you punch, they lose their weapon, which is nice
A scumbag move that i'm referring to is for example a dive kick, it is essentially just an easy way to kill an enemy, and that's really the only cheesey move in the game.
And what are you being so aggressive about lol? Do you even know what I am saying, I am saying that Lunatic wants players to 'Just a simple goal: Win. Do whatever it takes, don't let anyone get in your way!'
Like no, I will play how I want to play, I don't have a code of honour I just play my way, and I do win. And I was also stating that he wont change anyone's attitude of being rude, I wish nobody was a rude cunt but it isn't going to change them one bit.

So if I was going to reply to his post in one sentence it would just be
'Sorry buddy, people aren't going to change their attitude and they will play how they want to, nothing you do will change that.'

Stop thinking that I expect people to play a certain way and think that I think less of people who play differently. At least read before you type something stupid
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Post by Lunatic » Sat May 14, 2016 12:22 am

LuckyLucas wrote: 'Fighting nature is difficult, yet easily won.' What, so is it easy or difficult to win against nature?
'You don't have to go out and change others; you need only change yourself.' So why'd you write this post?

I don't like your post because of how you expect people to change, yes people will always swear even if you ask them politely to stop, and while I do not like people who can't control their emotions, what really annoys me about this post is how you are forcing your opinions on others. I hate runners and campers.
Runners run away from an endgame situation and just waste everyone's time, which is incredibly annoying.
Campers are too cowardly to actually play the game and just hide until the round is over, forever defending their territory.
While I do hate these type of players, I do not type into chat 'RUNNER' and 'CAMPER.' I just play the game and deal with it.
I much prefer a good game where let's say both players have around the same health and fight 1v1, whether it's melee or guns I don't care, as long as they don't run away it's good.
You are so self righteous because you are forcing others to play how you want them to, which is to 'do anything to win' even if that means being a backstabbing cheeky cunt.

It's more fun to play a game and properly earn your victory by not using scumbag methods.
Wow, there's a lot going on in this post! Guess I'll just hit every spot on my way down this quote.

Fighting your nature and what you're inclined to do can be very difficult unless you're actively trying to fix it and you're consciously aware of the issue; at which point, it can quite easily be conquered. idk it made more sense when I typed it earlier (^:

I wrote this post because, in my opinion, it needed to be done. If nobody else is going to say "there's a problem here!" then I don't see why I shouldn't. You don't have to go out and tell everyone to cut the shit now, but you can ask yourself if there are areas to improve on, and better yourself as a person. If we change a large handful of the community, we've already bettered it and are on our way to a healthier forum. Hell, just a few people trying to make themselves better already shows that this post was not in vain. I want the SFD community to be in a better place.
So yeah, that's why I wrote this. So that people can acknowledge there's a problem and can consider whether or not they want to address it in themselves.

"forcing players to play by an anything-goes ruleset." Ah man, I'm forcing players to do anything they want! Mind control is the worst.
I'm telling players there's nothing wrong with camping or running. Surviving the fight is one of the most important parts of winning the round; camping and running are both very powerful defensive options to keep yourself alive for a little longer. Telling players they can't kick or run is like... How do we define camping/running? How far away does a player have to move to be a "runner"? What if I just wanted that chair over there, am I a runner if I hopped the desk to get it? How about from Police Station bottom portal to the elevator for a weapon crate? When does it stop? Same goes for camping: How long must one sit before they're "camping"? Can they be running back and forth and be considered not camping? If we can't easily identify where these issues are, then we sure as hell can't enforce such an arbitrary ruleset. Unless you're the host. Then you can just kick and ban anyone you want. Fun stuff.

I like to be a backstabbing cheeky cunt because then I get to freely output damage and probably knock 1-2 players out of the round. That's less sources of incoming damage, and less people to fight over drops for. That greatly increases my odds of winning!

I mean, if using everything in your arsenal to win makes you feel like a scumbag, then I guess I'll let you do you. But if we fight, I'm gonna play dirty, end of story. I won't play by your rules either. You don't have to play by mine, but the point of the post is "there are no scumbag moves, it's a game that has all these options and by not using a handful of them you're limiting yourself as a player." This post also has great implications towards bettering the individual so that it enriches the community and betters the game both as a competitive sport as well as a casual for-fun game.
3 x
Originally posted by Gurt
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Post by Vitamin E » Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:11 am

 ! Message from: KliPeH
Merged a new topic with an older one that is based around the same idea.
I found this great in depth article about fighting games today and its very much related to Superfighters. It fully describes what a scrub is and how they operate.

This part especially reminded me of superfighters "Scrubs are likely to label a wide variety of moves and tactics as "cheap." For example, performing a throw in fighting games is often called cheap. A throw is a move that grabs an opponent and damages them even while they're defending against all other kinds of attacks. Throws exist specifically to allow you to damage opponents who block and don't attack.
As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it's meant to be there—yet scrubs construct their own set of principles that state they should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. Scrubs think of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect them indefinitely. Throwing violates the rules in their heads even though it doesn't violate any actual game rule."

I posted this as to try to reduce the amount of scrubs we have in the community. Just play the game and have fun, don't complain if something is "cheap" or complain about "spam". Instead of complaining just learn how to fight back and laugh when you succeed. Still, laugh when you don't succeed. Just don't be a scrub.
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Post by Presentionus » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:54 am

Vitamin E wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:11 am
I found this great in depth article about fighting games today and its very much related to Superfighters. It fully describes what a scrub is and how they operate.

This part especially reminded me of superfighters "Scrubs are likely to label a wide variety of moves and tactics as "cheap." For example, performing a throw in fighting games is often called cheap. A throw is a move that grabs an opponent and damages them even while they're defending against all other kinds of attacks. Throws exist specifically to allow you to damage opponents who block and don't attack.
As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it's meant to be there—yet scrubs construct their own set of principles that state they should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. Scrubs think of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect them indefinitely. Throwing violates the rules in their heads even though it doesn't violate any actual game rule."

I posted this as to try to reduce the amount of scrubs we have in the community. Just play the game and have fun, don't complain if something is "cheap" or complain about "spam". Instead of complaining just learn how to fight back and laugh when you succeed. Still, laugh when you don't succeed. Just don't be a scrub.
If i push explosive barrels on other peoples heads does that make me a "scrub"? If i mostly use physics objects to my advantage in every single round of SFD that i have played, does that make me a "scrub"? :|
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Vitamin E
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:51 pm
Title: Completely Neutral
Started SFD: around 2012
Gender:

Post by Vitamin E » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:50 am

No scrubs are people who aren't good at the game and complain when they lose because they don't know how to adapt. You're supposed to use everything possible to kill your opponent. If it's in the game, then use it.
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