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Old Melee was Better - Analysed Proof

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Mighty Spirit the 2
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Re: Old Melee was Better - Analysed Proof

Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:07 pm

Maniac wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:28 pm
Yes it's not fun to keep getting beaten by melee fix tryhards all the time. but I'd say if they have explored and tried to master all sorts of possible melee moves in the game and are trying to raise the bar, they're the right critiques of what is wrong and what is not with the current state of melee (with evidence of course rather than stating facts).
Finally someone who isn't biased, is reasonable and has no ill intent.
Yeah i agree, it's not fun to get destroyed by someone who shamelessly abuses everything to take you down. It doesn't make the game fun. It's not the fact that the game hasn't always been like this. It's the fact that with the removal of mobility, it became piss easy to kill someone because they can do absolutely 0 to resist in the first place. Once in a combo your dead. Double hits were never like this, they couldn't stun you infinitely. They would just deal a chunk of damage, and that's it. They were also more difficult to perform compared to any combo today, and made melee more diverse, more dynamic and higher tech skill. Melee is supposed to be a fight between who's best, no? Not who gets luckiest and lands the meta combo first. There's no struggle if i can do nothing, right?
Maniac wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:28 pm
because the devs could never have the time to interact with the players and critique the way you have done.
worst part is that playtesters warned them about the consequence of these changes (when they were still planning them) and what they would bring, but they still didn't listen.
Maniac wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:28 pm
You cannot blame them if they didn't update the game to become the utopia for a part of the playerbase. They had to keep up giving updates and patches for 8 years all for free just to receive negativity in the end.
I wanted to donate to this game when it was free. Also why i tried to promote it so badly. But we know how that turned out so.. I didn't even want these last few updates, hence what i'm saying is that we should be able to enjoy the Old SFD to our personal preference. They can do what they want with the current game, just let us who want to revert.
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Post by Sir Kent » Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:27 am

Now both of my last posts have been flagged as unconstructive. Don't project your understanding of "unconstructive" on to me. You want something really constructive? "LISTEN TO YOUR COMMUNITY". We're literally crying out in tears to tell u steam version is way worse than beta and all u do is sit on your high horse in denial. Mighty took the time to point out every single thing wrong with melee and u don't even have the decency to respond with something factual or constructive for that matter. You should delete your own comment if you really believe in your "rules". And so I come to a close of my hissy fit, I hope I have entertained someone at least and with some luck devs might take a long look at themselves and think about what they've done or rather what they haven't done.
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Post by mgtr14 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:17 pm

Vitamin E wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:37 pm
And I got to say that to this day old melee still feels 100x better then what we are stuck with now
Although to be fair, yes I must admit my memories were biased, old melee wasn't as great as I thought it would be.

So I’m assuming you thought the previous melee was 1000x times better but you changed it to 100 after actually experiencing it. I think the devs have updated the game to be better and balanced for new players and old players alike.
I just want to add that it's actually more difficult for new players to get in. Better players will *always* be better, and will always use new additions (grab,chainsaw, shurikens) better and more often than new players. Nowadays it's incredibly easy to get ahold of good guns or exploit throws/grabs to kill new players. It actually unbalanced the game even more, while also managing to make it more luck-based for everyone lol.

Atleast I got my ass kicked with style when I first started playing. And when I did get better (Which is the only true way to balance out this game after all), I myself found new moves and improved my melee a lot.
Maniac wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:28 pm
Yes it's not fun to keep getting beaten by melee fix tryhards all the time. but I'd say if they have explored and tried to master all sorts of possible melee moves in the game and are trying to raise the bar, they're the right critiques of what is wrong and what is not with the current state of melee (with evidence of course rather than stating facts). However the game has come to what it is and nothing can't be changed now. Also whatever a player thinks about the game is entirely subjective. And the devs created the game so i think they have all the rights to do whatever the hell they want with it. because the devs could never have the time to interact with the players and critique the way you have done. You cannot blame them if they didn't update the game to become the utopia for a part of the playerbase. They had to keep up giving updates and patches for 8 years all for free just to receive negativity in the end.
While the devs can do what they want with their game, some changes were just mistakes and they should revert them or give players an easy option to turn them off. We still don't have weapon sliders (So hosts can turn off certain weapons) and ways to modify some luck factors of the game.

While they didn't have as much time as their players to actually play the game, it is clear that they outright ignored the meta of the game. (I've seen them play and they're at best just decent.). Even when having some of the meta pointed out, they made terrible changes and ignored much of what some players said. We had to accept grabs though most of us hated it at first.
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Post by Odex64 » Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:56 pm

After a while I decided to post again and completely explain my point of view rather than just say "new melee is better because of..", I'd also like to apologize for my inappropriate behavior and for people who misunderstood what I meant.

I'll consider the same points of Mighty Spirit the 2 and objectively / subjectively comment them, let's start:

Objectively (with some personal thoughts)
  • Mobility - Mobility has been a big part of the old melee, you were able to move much faster, and there was less delay between rolls, attacks and blocks, and melee was much funnier and dynamic. You were able to avoid some attacks by immediately rolling, or even make some combos by spamming keys, etc.. Reflex was an important factor here. Personally I don't have anything against it, except for the massive spam.
     
  • Ping - I can't tell the difference since I always played with a low ping (40 to 90), however I can clearly say ping was much better before devs started working on the steam version, about ~15 (it might be my internet as well). I also played again the beta version few days ago and it's more difficulty to kill players, since I have to press keys faster at higher ping (I guess?)
     
  • Complexity - Perhaps the most important feature. You were able to make unique combos with the combination of Mobility and some "glitches", and even kill players without giving them the time to move in some scenarios (that's what I disliked). An example is the roll jump, or dive punch which devs completely removed from the game, nowadays melee is much more simpler (and there's less chance from being obliterated by try-hards), however it may result way too simple for veterans, and there's less difference between pros and noobs.

My final thoughts
As you may know I'm against the old melee, but there are some things I'd like to revert. The old melee was funnier and more dynamic, and I admit I used to host a lot Melee 1.3 FIX back in Alpha / Beta, however some players used to massively spam attacks and you would die every f***ing time against them, plus ping really mattered in the old versions.

Maybe it's the time, or the fact I'm getting worse at playing, but I enjoyed the old melee despite all its issues; when I played for the first time the Steam version it was uncomfortable, but after a while I got used to it.
In short term: I liked the old melee in past, but I really hated some buggy mechanics and a lot of "spammers", the new one feels more balanced, but it's lacking of dynamicity and fun.
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:21 pm

@Odex64 Thank you for taking your time to actually explain your thoughts, unlike most people on here that can't tell their opinion with more then a single sentence, and not actually explain how or why they think that.

There's only a small thing i'd comment on:
Odex64 wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:56 pm
and there's less chance from being obliterated by try-hards
If you truly believe that, then you really haven't played the game enough. It is so easy to get spammed to death by someone today, it's sad.
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Post by Relgap » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:49 pm

crazy nice, you found the hidden text
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Post by RiD » Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:48 am

Nobody asked me, but:
I remember when I started playing SFD in very old versions, there were a lot of good players and my strategy was to shoot and run. The game I remember the most so far was when I was playing with very good people at melee, I played for a few hours in that game and although I didn't win any I had a lot of fun, after many attempts I finally managed to win a game, it was such a pleasant moment that years later I still remember.
I loved the freedom in the movements that I did in the previous versions, I even used a whole day to try to invent a movement of my own in the PreAlpha tutorial room, maybe someone else discovered it first, but personally I consider myself the creator of the movement "Dive combo with a wall". Before I loved the game so much that I still keep an SFD Setup PreAlpha 1.8.8.exe saved on my computer
After the changes to the melee system I kept trying to move like I used to in previous versions, but I just can't do what I could do before.
I find the change to the game frustrating and the opinions they put to defend that change, if you are bad at melee and lose yourself annoyed, practice or invent a way to play that you enjoy even if you lose. (Or just don't play the game)
There are games that do not care that you are new to the game, they do not chew everything on you so you just have to swallow it, to name a well-known example: Fortnite.
Personally, I think SFD went from being a game with a lot of freedom of movement to a game that limits your game modes with rough and slow movements, forcing you to act like a bot.
[Translated from Google]
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Mighty Spirit the 2
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:00 pm

Wow we might have a lot in common @RiD
I too used to play run and gunning (probably like every single new player), until i finally learned to hold my own in melee. That act itself was so rewarding, not having to run anymore, to be able to read your opponent and dominate in a fight.
RiD wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:48 am
I remember when I started playing SFD in very old versions, there were a lot of good players and my strategy was to shoot and run. The game I remember the most so far was when I was playing with very good people at melee, I played for a few hours in that game and although I didn't win any I had a lot of fun, after many attempts I finally managed to win a game, it was such a pleasant moment that years later I still remember.
I loved the freedom in the movements that I did in the previous versions
That's exactly the same for me, i enjoyed the game tremendously even thought i never won, melee itself was the most fun aspect of the game even thought i kept getting rekt at it. It just made me want to get better. I too have memories i will never forget when i finally beat someone leagues better then me. I also still have the original "Alpha 1.3.4c.exe" installer file on my laptop (my first version of SFD).

Mythologic... you do realize that people will get tired of playing only custom maps and casual 24/7, right? I got tired of it after 2 months.
Then i joined Blurry's and i got sucked into a whole other world with people were god-like at melee and i simply got addicted to competitive. That itself kept me playing the game. The online play feature made me never get tired of it i played for 1.5 years without break and i would have played much more if you hadn't done poor decisions to the game. I should mention that even back then the game wasn't balanced at all, but people that were incredibly good at the game still had a consistency in skill and wins, something you just don't see today in russian roulette chaos. People will get tired of chaos eventually, what they want is balance (look at the complaints on drones, shuriken, shock baton).
RiD wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:48 am
Personally, I think SFD went from being a game with a lot of freedom of movement to a game that limits your game modes with rough and slow movements, forcing you to act like a bot.
Yeah, the melee change severely limited our defensive options and mobility (especially with ping, lmao), you will end up in situations were you can do nothing at all and it's frustrating. You're trying to prevent something from happening, but you are so limited in defensive options that it ends up happening either way. - Thanks Mytholic. ;)
If you wanted to close the gap between a New Player and someone who has played the game day and night for 3+ years... this is not the way to do it. One "simple fix" alternative could have been to make a game mode which is a fusing of competitive and casual, a server hosting officials and having a respawn option. Like stocks in Super Smash Bros. I'm just guessing here, but that way you didn't have to fear any New Players ragequitting the game and refunding it immediately, if that's what you did. In this small hub between casual and competitive weaker players could build up their skill, strength and experience, and when feeling ready they could join the real competitive server with only 1 life and waiting time (if they weren't ready they could always go back). Also Kill/Death ration when? Surely it wouldn't have been difficult to do?
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Post by Ab Hab » Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:16 am

Kill:Death ratio might be hard to do. If a noob sees a melee pro come running at him, and starts running the other way to step on a mine placed by a camper, who killed the noob? The noob wouldn't have stepped on the mine if not for the pro, and the noob wouldn't have died if the camper didn't put down the mine. They both kinda killed him.
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Mighty Spirit the 2
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Post by Mighty Spirit the 2 » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:20 pm

Ab Hab wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:16 am
Kill:Death ratio might be hard to do. If a noob sees a melee pro come running at him, and starts running the other way to step on a mine placed by a camper, who killed the noob? The noob wouldn't have stepped on the mine if not for the pro, and the noob wouldn't have died if the camper didn't put down the mine. They both kinda killed him.
I've seen this type of discussion before and personally i always thought when it comes to explosives like mines and grenades, then the person who gets the kill should be the last one touching it, like me kicking a mine or grenade into someone, then it would be my kill. If you die in the process then both get registered a death and not a kill. If you kick someone into a explosive barrel it was your kick, so you got the point. When it comes to shooting explosives, i don't know if the game could track that, so that should just register as a death for the victim.
Same can be said about someone who decides to jump off a cliff to prevent someone else from getting a kill. Then that would be registered as death for the jumper.
Not sure how they did it with this WIP script: [Requests] Finish my Tournament Script , but i'm waiting for it to get done.
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🎶I will tell your story if you die
I will tell your story and keep you alive the best i can
...
But I've always had the feeling we would die young
Some die young
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