Dear forum users! In compliance with the new European GDPR regulations, we'd just like to inform you that if you have an account, your email address is stored in our database. We do not share your information with third parties, and your email address and password are encrypted for security reasons.

New to the forum? Say hello in this topic! Also make sure to read the rules.

Incendiary Ammo Powerup ammo calculations are weird

Here you can find all solved gameplay problems and bugs (beginning from Pre-Alpha 1.8.8).
Forum rules
By using the forum you agree to the following rules. For this forum you also need to follow these additional rules.
Locked
User avatar
KliPeH
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 914
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 3:03 pm
Title: [happy moth noises]
SFD Account: KliPeH
Started SFD: Pre-Alpha 1.4.2
Gender:
Contact:

Incendiary Ammo Powerup ammo calculations are weird

Post by KliPeH » Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:08 pm

I've been playtesting the new update for a few hours and have so far been enjoying my time with the additions. The incendiary ammo is especially fun to use because it can turn even the weakest of weapons into a fighter-slayer beast potentially surpassing the killpower of an M60. I was trying to put my finger on why exactly this powerup is so powerful and after testing it for a while I have found the perpetrator.

The powerup gives you ammo.

But, it's not only the fact that you get more ammo using it (I'll get to that later), it's that the ammo is not distributed evenly among all the weapons. It seems the powerup favors weaker weapons (handguns), but in a very odd manner. Some weapons will have ammo refilled + gain an additional mag, some will have ammo refilled and have their mag sized increased, and some will straight up refill ammo and gain 2-3 additional mags/flares/loaders.

Here's a demonstration:
Pistol:             12 | 1   ===>   12 | 2    (1 new mag)               [30] [6]    
Pistol .45:         10 | 1   ===>   10 | 2    (1 new mag)               [30] [0]   
Magnum:              6 | 1   ===>    6 | 2    (1 new mag)               [18] [0]   
Revolver:            6 | 1   ===>    6 | 4    (3 new speedloaders)      [30] [0]   
Uzi:                25 | 1   ===>   30 | 1    (Increased mag size)      [30] [25] 
M. Pistol:          25 | 1   ===>   30 | 1    (Increased mag size)      [30] [25] 
Flare gun:           1 | 3   ===>    1 | 5    (2 new flares)            [6]  [0]   
In this table you will find the following peculiarities:
  • The Pistol has 6 regular rounds to spare after the incendiary ammo is spent. There's no reason for this to be a thing as all other weapons receive an amount of fire ammo that is equal to that inside of one full magazine.
  • The Uzi and Machine Pistol only have the size of the first magazine increased. You may accidentally prematurely reload and lose a few fire rounds, or forget that the second magazine is smaller after you've spent the first one. Why not give 25 incendiary rounds to begin with?
  • How come the Revolver receives 3 new mags (speedloaders) as opposed to the rest of the weapons which only receive 1 or not at all? It's not like it was so weak it required a buff.
The rest in itself would've been fine had you not been able to compare it to the primary weapon selection, which makes way more sense:
Tommygun:           35 | 1   ===>   35 | 1    ( - )                      [35] [35]                              
Assault Rifle:      24 | 1   ===>   24 | 1    ( - )                      [24] [24]                              
MP50:               30 | 1   ===>   30 | 1    ( - )                      [30] [30]                              
SMG:                30 | 1   ===>   30 | 1    ( - )                      [30] [30]                              
Bow:                10 | -   ===>   10 | -    ( - )                      [10] [0]                                
Bazooka:             1 | 2   ===>    1 | 2    ( - )                      [3]  [0]                               
GL:                  1 | 2   ===>    1 | 2    ( - )                      [3]  [0]                               
None of the weapons receive new mags, and the incendiary round amount matches the exact amount of rounds in one full magazine. You understand that once you reload, you're done shooting fire, simple. If it's a power weapon all projectiles will be affected and no additional ones will be gained from using the powerup. This is how things should be done.

Then, there's the carbine, which, like the Pistol, leaves you with 6 regular bullets to spare for seemingly no reason. It also receives an additional magazine, unlike most other primaries.
Carbine:            12 | 1   ===>   12 | 2    (1 new mag)                [30] [6]
After seeing the Bazooka and GL and assuming power weapons/primaries will not be receiving more ammo from the pickup, in comes the Sniper Rifle, which gets an additional mag for some reason, as if it wasn't powerful enough:
Sniper Rifle:        3 | 1   ===>    3 | 2    (1 new mag)                [9]  [0]
Now come the real big changes - ones to the shotgun ammo pools.

Normally, picking up two of the same type of shotgun will simply double the amount of shells you're carrying. This is only the case with the Pump-action when it comes to incendiary ammo; you'll be getting more than double the ammo if you pick up the powerup, in addition to instantly setting players on Stage 2 fire with one pellet turning the shotgun into a very chaotic sniper rifle.
Pump-action:         6 | 6   ===>    6 | 12   (6 new shells)             [18] [0] 
Riot shotgun:        5 | 5   ===>    5 | 13   (7 new shells)             [18] [0] 
Sawed-off:           2 | 6   ===>    2 | 16   (10 new shells)            [18] [0] 
This is incredibly strong and should be nerfed as the shotguns never require more ammo to be effective especially when said ammo sets things ablaze and puts fighters on Stage 2 fire.

To fix all these inconsistencies, I would suggest the following changes be made to the powerup:
  • All weapons - should NOT be granted additional magazines - like most primaries currently. If the first magazine is half-empty, fill it up - but do not gain additional mags. Fire ammo is already strong enough, giving players more ammo is excessive.
  • Secondaries - only affect the first mag - like most primaries currently. You've decided to use fire ammo on a secondary, live with the choice - this is the case with the Laser Sight powerup. You should not receive as much incendiary ammo as a primary weapon takes. This also removes the ridiculous 6-spare-rounds nonsense.
  • Flare gun - no reason for it to receive 2 additional flares, as the Bow doesn't get more arrows and the Bazooka/GL don't get more rockets/nades.
  • Carbine / Sniper Rifle - no additional mags should be gained, like other primaries.
  • Uzi / Machine Pistol - mag size should stay the same. Get 25 fire rounds instead of 30.
  • Shotguns - no additional shells should be gained, only the first batch should be affected (2/5/6 in each weapon respectively).
Thanks for reading, do give feedback or suggest different ways to make the ammo calculation less confusing.
6 x
 
Image

User avatar
Gurt
Lead Programmer
Lead Programmer
Posts: 1884
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:22 pm
Title: Lead programmer
Started SFD: Made it!
Location: Sweden
Gender:
Age: 34

Post by Gurt » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:24 pm

Thanks for your detailed topic. Most of the inconsistencies are bugs and the remaining ones are by design.

Our intent with the special ammo boxes is to give you around 30 special bullets to each weapon and also act as ammo refills. This was a deliberate choice as just filling the first magazine in any weapon would be an unfair disadvantage/advantage to CERTAIN weapons (flare gun with only 1 round and m60 with 100 rounds to mention two extremes) which would also add an extra level of meta-play to think about when grabbing special ammo - always favoring other weapons much more than others - something we didn't want. So giving 30 special bullets approach worked best for SFD as we wanted the special ammo to also be bound to the weapon just like the laser sight upgrade does.

Some weapons can't hold more than a few rounds (bazookas, grenade launcher, sniper rifle) and other weapons can hold much more in total (m60, assault rifle, mp50).

If a weapon has a magazine size that's near 30 the special ammo pickup will only give you one full magazine refill with special bullets.
If a weapon has a magazine size that's much less you will get one or more extra magazine to get close to 30 special bullets.
If a weapon has a magazine size that's much greater than 30 the current magazine will only be refilled with up to 30 rounds (this only applies to the m60 weapon atm).

Grabbing another special ammo pack while having full special ammo can for some weapons give double the special ammo due to a bug. Oops. This if fixed after v.1.2.0b.
Due to another bug the default 30 special bullets doesn't work properly for all weapons, resulting in arbitrary half magazines with special ammo. This is also fixed after v.1.2.0b as we now have gone through all weapons and specified exactly how much special ammo each weapon should receive.

Code: Select all

The special ammo pickup table is intended to look like this (fixed after v.1.2.0b):
[Weapon]              [Total special rounds]        comment
Assault Rifle         24 (1 mag)
Bazooka               3 (3 rockets)                 Each bouncing 3 times (by default bullets bounce 5 times.), extra fire on impact for fire powerup
Bow                   10 (10 arrows)                Each bouncing 8 times, extra fire on impact for fire powerup
Carbine               24 (2 mags)				
Dark Shotgun          10 (10 shells)
Flare Gun             5 (5 flares)                  Extra fire on impact for fire powerup
Grenade Launcher      3 (3 rounds)                  Each bouncing 3, extra fire on impact for fire powerup
M60                   30                            Fills existing mag up to 30 if its below 30
Machine Pistol        25 (1 mag)
Magnum                18 (3 mags)
Mp50                  30 (1 mag)
Pistol                24 (2 mags)
Pistol45              20 (2 mags)
Revolver              18 (3 mags)
Sawed Off Shotgun     8 (8 shells)
Shotun                12 (12 shells)
Silenced Pistol       24 (2 mags)
Silenced Uzi          25 (1 mag)
SMG                   30 (1 mag)
Sniper Rifle          9 (3 mags)                    Each bouncing 20 times with no random bounce-deflection
Tommygun              35 (1 mag)
Uzi                   25 (1 mag)
Flamethrower          N/A                           Flamethrower is the only ranged weapon that can't apply special ammo.
These above values are arbitrary chosen by us to get closer to 30 rounds than not. The bow can never hold more than 10 arrows so that's why the bow only receives 10 arrows and no more! It's a hard limit on the weapon itself. While some weapons like the magnum could hold up to 24 rounds (it's its hard cap) it just feels better with 18 rounds (3 mags) instead of 24 rounds (4 mags) as it's the magnum and a handgun. It boils down to what feels right for us and not necessarily what's a logical/simple rule/approach - like so many other systems in SFD has evolved around "it feels good" rather than "it's logical".
All in all most handgun weapons have a special ammo capacity around 18-25 rounds which gives them a slight disadvantage over most primary rifle weapons which have 24 to 35 rounds.
Some weapons like the flare gun, m60, sniper bazooka and grenade launcher just have a limited max ammo pool so they can't have much more special rounds anyway.

This ammo distribution table is the same for both bouncing and fire bullets and won't diverge to keep that consistent. We might revisit the ammo stash to also apply this set of rules to keep it even more consistent but we'll see.

Any discussion about the fire powerup itself and possible changes to it (nerfs?) belongs in another topic.
Last edited by Gurt on Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Updated information for shotguns
3 x
Gurt

User avatar
Iliyan
Superfighter
Superfighter
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:12 pm
Title: Enthusiast of SF and SFD
SFD Account: Iliyan
SFD Alias: Iliyan[44]
Started SFD: Carving for it since normal SF
Location: Spain
Gender:
Age: 27

Post by Iliyan » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:32 pm

Why dont you gust make a seprate power up that is gust plain extra ammo will that not fix the problem that KliPeH has with the extra ammo in the new fire/bouncing ammo powerup?

And by the way expect a ton of rambling about fire ammo being too op, and "it feels good" rather than "it's logical" will not cut it for almost any one like why dose "fire arrows" were not used in war (one of the reasons), because when someone got shot the wound got cauterized and the bleeding stopped, im not saying this to sound logical (oh look at me Mr.100%BiologyFact) but because it actualy dosent feel good for me to get shot or shoot some one with a carabine and kill him with 3-5 shots max with fireammo, i mean carabine used to be shit now its up there. Gust ignore the last part of the coment and trow it some were in the back of youre mind with all the complains, dont even relocate this coment im sure the tread "inceendiary ammo too OP" dosent need me.

Lol by the way KliPeH fuking reflected perfect every aspect i was thinking about regarding the extra ammo in the post and did it better than anyone, put yourself an imaginary medal on youre chest soldier.
0 x

Locked