[SOLVED] Walldiving + slamming is not counterable

[KliPeH]

Another famous trick the devs apparently aren't aware of.

Here's a GIF demonstrating it.
Note that I am NOT replicating the bug perfectly (walking for too long before diving again, for example), leaving room for a counterattack, but it IS possible to do this flawlessly and quite literally create a deathtrap.

► Show Spoiler

Update: Here's a version without infinite energy.

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Regardless of the amount of times it is done in succession, and similarly to the no-cooldown slam, this little trick grants you free damage the opponent cannot possibly react to if caught off-guard. When used with infinite-energy on, the move can be performed an infinite amount of times, and assuming it is executed without error it guarantees a kill of at least one player without any actual equipment.

Since I already know what the excuse not to fix this will be ("/ie 1 is a cheat and not an official option, hence we will not put the effort into fixing this issue"), take regular stamina drain into account; it allows a player to do this approximately 3 11 times, and follow the combo up with a different move of their choice (since punching can be done without stamina). If done properly, the victim cannot counterattack while being dived into; blocking doesn't do anything and the victim cannot get up fast enough to retaliate by punching or kicking back. Moving is not an option either. That means your opponent will be forced to suffer the damage and deal with the consequences if somebody decides to use that trick on them.

As I explained in my previous bug report, creating a move that cannot be countered is bad game design and is considered an exploit in my eyes (even though you're "using the terrain to your advantage"). I think a decent fix for this could be that rather than returning you to your regular standing position after getting walldived you'd get staggered midair and fall as if you've been kicked off a ledge or slammed down. I think there's plenty of room to allow that in default maps and that would force players to think more cautiously about their movement.

[Formel]

How long can you do it without IE?

[KliPeH]

How long can you do it without IE?

[...] take regular stamina drain into account; it allows a user to do this approximately 3 times, and follow it up with a regular combo of their choice.

Pretty much that. I'll check again and come back with a more specific answer.

EDIT:
I updated the amount of times after testing and found that you can walldive somebody approximately 11 times before running out of stamina. That's insane. Even after you're done you can still follow it up with a punch combo, as punches stop stamina regen but can be executed with 0 stamina available, which makes it that much more deadly.

[Lunatic]

Throw in any melee weapon and this will guaranteed kill. If you use perfect inputs to minimize stamina usage, I think this might actually kill empty-handed. Talk about broken.

For reference, players have 100 hp, and fists deal 8.5 per strike. Baton (weakest melee weapon) deals 10.5.

[Player1]

All you have to do is the roll.

[Wozenbelt]

All you have to do is the roll.

When you tech the walldive, you're still in range of their next dive, and you get hit again.

[Player1]

All you have to do is the roll.

When you tech the walldive, you're still in range of their next dive, and you get hit again.

Trust me, all you have to do is roll. I've hosted and even walled players, and all they did to get out of it? Roll...

[Hjarpe]

Thanks for the gif, Klipeh. That is indeed a lot of "free hits", though you must admit that the circumstances in which you can kill someone with this maneuver are very specific. You need a wall, enough stamina and an opponent who lets you get the first wall-dive in. I don't think this has ever happened to me in my years of playing the game, though I reckon it's common if you play on melee maps with infinite energy on (i.e. very far from how the game is designed to be played).

There's no point in implying that we are lazy or bad designers because we don't agree with your opinions about the melee. I also don't understand your proposed solution about getting "staggered in mid-air", feel free to clarify.

[KliPeH]

[...] I also don't understand your proposed solution about getting "staggered in mid-air", feel free to clarify.

Instead of simply "standing up" or returning into a vertical position when diving into a wall, get "staggered"/fall just as if you've been kicking from a ledge and you got into a freefalling position. I don't know which other way to use to clarify the idea.

[Gurt]

After now discussing this while watching the gif video (thanks for that!) we have a come up with simple but effective rules to deal with this specific problem.
1: If you dive into a wall the cooldown for your next available dive will be increased to prevent you from spamming dives.
2: If you dive into a wall and perform an air attack before landing you will enter full kneeling. This is a special case where you enter full kneeling even if you drop a short distance because you just performed a dive into a wall - hitting your head.

With that you will still be able to perform a wall dive if you want but with the wall diving comes consequences so you can't repeat it over and over - forcing you to find other ("more fair and even") ways to deal with your opponent.

[gwendalaze]

After now discussing this while watching the gif video (thanks for that!) we have a come up with simple but effective rules to deal with this specific problem.
1: If you dive into a wall the cooldown for your next available dive will be increased to prevent you from spamming dives.
2: If you dive into a wall and perform an air attack before landing you will enter full kneeling. This is a special case where you enter full kneeling even if you drop a short distance because you just performed a dive into a wall - hitting your head.

What about making so that when you dive a wall, you bounce off from it, stuck into the rolling animation that occur when you got crit-ed in mid-air. That'd fair and logical : you just smashed your head into a wall, how can you be healthy and unstunned ? I think that is what Klipeh meant, and that seems balanced.

[Raptor]

I had this happen to me a couple of times before , all I did was punch once the guy used this on me and he went tumbling in the air. Maybe like how player 1 said u have to roll to get out works . I asked the guy I was playing with he said he learned it from playing with del poncho and someone else so I went to delphonchos server and he did the same thing to me with out a wall

[Player1]

I had this happen to me a couple of times before , all I did was punch once the guy used this on me and he went tumbling in the air. Maybe like how player 1 said u have to roll to get out works . I asked the guy I was playing with he said he learned it from playing with del poncho and someone else so I went to delphonchos server and he did the same thing to me with out a wall

Yep, just tech roll to get out of it, or press the attack button when they dive at you again, etc.
It's pretty easy to get out of, even in small spaces, I say leave it be.

[[Failman]]

So if I were to dive into a crate or barrel would I have to suffer the cool down or does it only work on walls, also does why did you implement the 2 second solution if you can't spam wall diving anymore, wouldn't this just slow down melee and leave me wide open deterring me from the thought of wall diving into my enemy?

[Player1]

So if I were to dive into a crate or barrel would I have to suffer the cool down or does it only work on walls, also does why did you implement the 2 second solution if you can't spam wall diving anymore, wouldn't this just slow down melee and leave me wide open deterring me from the thought of wall diving into my enemy?

Again like I said before, just leave it be, all you have to do is either roll or attack as they dive at you.
(I'm agreeing)

[Lunatic]

Attacks are too slow to intercept a dive, especially at that range. If you get up and spam the attack button as you do, I will tackle you anyways.

Tech rolls travel very small distances, and you can't jump out of them. If anything, you're giving yourself less room to get out, since I can still run back and catch your roll, diving you against a wall again. Rolls don't dodge dives.

That's why I propose we make the tech roll dodge dives. This way, a player can tech after being walldived and more easily escape the combo. However, it doesn't fix the issue of running back and catching the end of the roll, especially since dives have such large grabboxes. I still think we should be able to block to beat a dive, and not punch. A dive comes out instantly, as does a block, and attacks have considerable windup, which makes this pretty easy to abuse. The average person takes 250 milliseconds to react to visual cues - this move happens instantly, you basically have to expect the move to come out, not react to it.

[TheOriginalCj]

If I could atleast make a reccomendation as to kind of make this tactic less spammable. Punching/Kicking with no stamina should not deal any damage (if you're low on breath, your punches and kicks are more along the lines of just pushing).

[[Failman]]

So if I were to dive into a crate or barrel would I have to suffer the cool down or does it only work on walls, also does why did you implement the 2 second solution if you can't spam wall diving anymore, wouldn't this just slow down melee and leave me wide open deterring me from the thought of wall diving into my enemy?

Again like I said before, just leave it be, all you have to do is either roll or attack as they dive at you.
(I'm agreeing)

I'm not exactly for the new mechanic since I can tell how retardedly easy it is to get out of this situation and how dumb someone would need to be to get stuck in this situation, I'm just wondering why devs don't want us chaining attacks after deving.

[Gurt]

As Lunatic pointed out "Rolls don't dodge dives." and attacks are too slow to intercept the dive. This in combination with doing the dive against a wall perfectly leaves no room for your opponent to get up - basically locking your opponent until dead. Normally when you dive you enter the roll afterwards which you must either fully perform or jump to cancel. Doing this leaves enough time for your opponent to get back on his/her feet without you being able to dive again. Wall diving is just a way to cancel the forced roll/jump to cancel leaving no time for your opponent to get back up before you dive again - as shown in the provided GIF in the first post.

We might tweak the first suggested rule to only include if you have caught some other player "1: If you dive into a wall with a caught player the cooldown for your next available dive will be increased to prevent you from spamming dives.".

[[Failman]]

This I can understand but why did you add the second solution? The first solution solves the problem so why do we have to knee after dive attacking? Wouldn't this just harm the games pacing?