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[DONE] Ability to grab enemies

Here you can see some of our planned features for Superfighters Deluxe.
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Re: CANCELED: Ability to grab enemies

Post by KliPeH » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:30 pm

Gurt wrote:
Judy Hops wrote:Damn... everyone was talking about it and i was excited but now it got canceled....
Only about 10 users shared a post in this topic before we announced it cancelled. I can't say 10 is everyone :)
Yeah, with 12 more users supporting the idea with "likes". Do you remember why we introduced the "like" system? That's right, so players would be able to show support without actually having to write a whole post explaining why. Are these being ignored now? Are you kidding me?

I find it truly astonishing you won't do anything after such an outcry. You've got a massive chunk of your active playerbase asking for a feature that could revolutionize, and I'm quoting you here, "half of the game", and you're just throwing it back at their face claiming that melee is "alive as it is" and it's "their fault" for exploiting this horrible system to win public matches. These claims are ridiculous, and are a result of bias to your creation rather than actual criticism of the way your game plays. Those pesky users that dare voice their opinion don't play the game until they get bored to switch to a different game, they go through the effort of registering an account on your website and take their time to explain their thoughts and ideas so it could succeed in being a more enjoyable product as a whole. These people are much more valuable than regular players, who never provide any feedback for the game and aren't as involved in the community as they are. Those dedicated users, you know, those who've been playing for YEARS? Those who made suggestions and provided feedback for each and every update? They are.

With all due respect, it is your game, but when so many people gather to tell you an idea should/shouldn't be added, you ought to listen and see what you can do to appeal to them. After all, they're the ones who will be putting the money into your game after release. I've already heard people say they refuse to buy the game after such an announcement, and I see why they'd do it. Saying "there's nothing we can do" after such a backlash is outright ignorant. If we're expandable and our opinions don't matter just say so and we'll stop using this section of the forums. Not like what we want makes a difference, right?
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Post by Relgap » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:49 pm

I legitimately feel insulted by the reply the devs made to this community outcry.
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Post by Sh4d0w » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:57 pm

Seriously? Throws made the melee exciting? If you're talking serious, then I'm in psychiatric hospital with the rest of the people who wanted to make the grabs true.

Throws don't make the melee exciting, it makes it even worse. How the throws are supposed to make melee better? Okay, throws can be usable, but this makes this even more common. The environment as a weapon was nice, so why have you added the throws? Yeah, it make the firearms more usable, but what is exciting about the throws? Please, tell me! I'm out of ideas.

The grabs can REALLY improve the melee, but you refuse to do this. The melee could be more interesting and more used, but you just think that your "excuse" can solve the problem. No, it actually makes your problem bigger. You will make the outcry bigger and bigger. Good luck with making the next response, the previous one just made the problem bigger.

Again, I don't offend you, but you just made something pretty... stupid.
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Post by Gurt » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:14 pm

Making a game is not unbiased and there's no correct right or wrong decision.
We never said it would make the game better to cancel it (Grabbing is still a good idea!).
We never said we didn't appreciate your feedback (We do appreciate your feedback!). We read all comments and ideas and it influence us in our decision making even if it doesn't always mean that the idea will be a part of the final game.

If you don't think cancelling this idea was the right decision then it's even more important to share your opinions on why the grabbing should not be cancelled as some of you have done in a constructive way (others in a more destructive way). If you haven't shared your opinion yet - share it and tell us why this shouldn't be cancelled or why it still should be cancelled! Good if it's further discussed!

The idea is cancelled for now but we might re-consider the grabbing idea again for future updates (and cancel something else instead).
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Post by mgtr14 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:31 pm

Gurt wrote: The idea is cancelled for now but we might re-consider the grabbing idea again for future updates (and cancel something else instead).
I hope that cancelling grabs will just be a small bump in the progress of the game, you're making it sound like feature after feature will be cancelled in favor of something else., wich is obviously a bad idea if you know your community.
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Post by Hjarpe » Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:50 pm

Gurt wrote:Making a game is not unbiased and there's no correct right or wrong decision.
We never said it would make the game better to cancel it (Grabbing is still a good idea!).
We never said we didn't appreciate your feedback (We do appreciate your feedback!). We read all comments and ideas and it influence us in our decision making even if it doesn't always mean that the idea will be a part of the final game.

If you don't think cancelling this idea was the right decision then it's even more important to share your opinions on why the grabbing should not be cancelled as some of you have done in a constructive way (others in a more destructive way). If you haven't shared your opinion yet - share it and tell us why this shouldn't be cancelled or why it still should be cancelled! Good if it's further discussed!

The idea is cancelled for now but we might re-consider the grabbing idea again for future updates (and cancel something else instead).
Agreed. How Gurt's post was interpreted as "we don't care what you think" is beyond me. We still listen to and treasure all constructive feedback we get. If you want to attack and misquote us, okay I guess, but it's not exactly helping your case.

The way I see it, grabbing was a sound idea but not (as some of the reactions would have us think) the Holy Fucking Grail of melee design. We don't want to add features unless we're sure they're worthwhile, and we're still not convinced that the benefits of adding grabbing would outweigh the cost (namely manhours, balance concerns, and more inputs creating a steeper learning curve).

We may still be persuaded that it is worth it, and I'm looking forward to more cool, constructive criticism on this matter. Jeez.
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Post by Ultimate » Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:00 am

lmao don't worry hjarpe they're just caught in their feelings and getting insulted over a game. like for example when i wanted grenades to NOT hit the player, everyone was against it, and i got over it. i listened to the explanation (which i didn't like) but i got over it. i didn't like the throwing "system" and complained but got over it.
buncha babies if ya ask me ;) ;) ;)
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Post by Del Poncho » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:36 am

I must say,despite what everybody says,I'm really,really happy with the melee system we have now.
Of course,we will have to see how the game evolves with future updates and everything,but right now,I dont think the grabbing thing was -as Hjarpe said in the most beautiful sequence of words- the Holy Fucking Grail of melee design.

I think a lot of people get the idea behind melee wrong: It's not just a succession of attacks and blocks. It's much more than that.

When meleeing,people tend to forget that they have a functional pair of goddamn feet.
Everybody stays still -punching and blocking- untill one of the two fighters falls dead. It's supposed to feel like an action movie! Not a brawl between legless boxeurs!
Try to move around your enemy to attack the unprotected side.
Step back to dodge a punch.
Leave the fight to re-enter it with the right timing to hit the enemy between his full-combo.
Use the goddamn ambient to attack him,jump down from a barrel to avoid the kneeling-time after an aerial attack,pretend to be jumping over the enemy just to stop on a nearby ladder. Be creative,goddamnit!

Recently,someone told me I was actually good in melee (I blushed a little),but reality was,that I was just going around him,attacking at the right moment,while he was standing approximately in the same spot,trying to counter attack.

This kind of fight doesn't reduce the fight to just blocks and punches,or as someone said,rock paper and scissors. It actually requires you to know what your enemy is about to do.
It puts goddamn sauce in the fight.
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Post by Lunatic » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:50 am

Melee combat is seen as the truest test of skill. "Anyone can pick up a gun and shoot it, but engaging someone with fists or weapon in hand and beating them to death with it is the greatest feat a fighter can accomplish." Melee fighting puts yourself at risk, a good player who reads his opponent and gets the upper hand enough to win a melee fight is a champion. Many of us feel like Melee is lacking, though. As a "rock-paper-scissors" mechanic, we have Rock (attacking) and we have paper (blocking). Scissors is supposed to be like, waiting and then punch, but that's just throwing a delayed rock. If we could grab, then we could beat paper and of course rock would beat scissors. Traditional fighting games do have some slight RPS combat, but there's enough moves with enough variation in utility that RPS fades away into a true test of skill. What's great is, positioning, mobility, and current weapons are our "other moves/utility". We have most of the basics down, this mechanic would finish off the mechanic and make half the game feel so much better. A true counter to blocking!

Yeah, this will take work to implement and balance. You've already spent some, what, ~5 years on SFD? That's a long time. If you want to reach as wide an audience as possible and get "filthy rich" then you might need to spend some extra time polishing what you've got to ensure it's quality. What other mechanics are there for you to work on before finally crawling out of pre-alpha? What else is there to work on before game launch, aside from bots? Some new weapons maybe? Some new cosmetics? I understand wanting to release the game already, it's been in the works for ages. I get that. But if you think the grab idea is good, don't you want your game, this labor of love, to be the most it can be when it's presented to the world? This is a VERY unique concept you have going for you, releasing it at full potential is, imo, the only way to truly do it justice.

You've got a respectable portion of your community posting here. I've never seen so much discussion spurred forth in such a short amount of time over something, and I've been a forum mod for 2-3 years. I've been on the forums for longer than that, too! What's crazy to me though, is that you have a lot of diversity in the people posting here. You have both of your most active mods (arguably your only active mods, really), you have prominent forum posters (Judy Hops, Duck, Shark, Failman, Zyfex, Scarface), you have people that are big in the scripting and map development area (Esper and Bash Kraken stand out a lot to me), and you even have people that hardly use the forums posting here, the same people I see in my server more than I have EVER seen them on the forums (Retired Santa, Danger Ross(This guy is an old vet too), Zere, NTN9)(haha if I didn't use your name don't feel bad). You have people from pretty much every group in the community here. This wasn't just some "oh hey it's that dumb thing nobody wanted", this post already had a little discussion and some 12 likes before it was cancelled. For a planned feature, and really for any post on the forum, 12 is a fucking LOT. I had my post about Sniper balance up for a WEEK before it got TEN likes.

We've already made a handful of topics and had plenty of discussion about grabs being in SFD, all of which have a pretty similar theme: Blocks have no straightforward counter, which is something we want. Dives beat blocks, I guess? But those don't reliably do damage since you have to go off a building with them to make them take fall damage. Even then, if you don't go that far, they can recovery roll behind you and you won't have any time to get a real punish. If they roll then kicking them will just stagger them. But here, let me go get some links towards posts that all discuss grabs and what they'd like from them.
Starting off on the old forum:
A post by iTurtle
This one was made by Wozenbelt
Written by our current mod, Sol
Here it is in the OP of the idea suggestion thread.
This one was wonderfully edited by Shock.
Made by Gwen, a prominent scripter that founded Octothorp iirc and also made #Wizards!
A detailed post by Maxco.

Cool, so that's 7 links talking (generally) about grabbing an enemy for a short moment and doing something with them - mostly around the theme of hitting them a time or two, or throwing them. And since I can't just search "grab" on this forum, I had to dig these ones out by hand. Also, a handful of posts I dug through mentioned them being excited for the new grab feature.

This one is centered around a powerup that gives you the ability to grab
Of course I'd post my thread. I feel differently about some things here but not grabs - I summed that up as necessary.
Then of course, there's the discussion throughout this thread. Perhaps I've said more in chats with my friends, though there's still enough support here for grabs from people that also haven't posted in this thread. This mechanic isn't just some random "hey that would be cool", this is something a lot of people want. This is something melee has needed for a very long time.

What more can we all say about grabbing that hasn't been said already? What constructive feedback is left? I mean, I didn't think anything was left if I'm being completely honest, but Duck managed to say something cool about the spacing game that shows there's a variety of options from different ranges players can use, especially if blocks get added in the manner you discussed. We can keep posting all we want, but at the end of the day, this is it. This is our argument for grabs. We've stated our cases time and again and here we are. After we all gave our input, here it was! A thread that said "hey, we're going to add it!" Before the thread was cancelled I believe I saw ~10 likes on it. There was some discussion on the thread, a couple people thought it would ruin the game, the post had no discussion for awhile and out of the blue it was cancelled. Now you have over 20 unique users from different groups of the community stating that this was a bad move. As Klip stated, the like system was implemented so that little "I agree" posts didn't have to exist. So now, we've ALL made our "we disagree" posts. I've NEVER ONCE seen THIS MUCH OUTCRY over something that's been announced or done. This isn't just something you need to address, say "too bad so sad" and move on. This entire burst of activity is a result of a common feeling from the community: Something is wrong with Melee, and we all want a fix. Grabbing is supposed to be that fix.

And now you want to cancel it because of throwing?

Yeah. We're all upset.

If you want to open a poll with a handful of features you're looking at adding before releasing Beta/the full game, and then have a vote for which one gets cancelled, go for it. You've already worked for this long, I would hope releasing a full and complete game would be the goal instead of cutting corners at the last minute to release something that isn't perfect. Even if you release the roughest testing versions of grabbing possible, that's what we're here for. You might get complaints like "wahhh this isn't polished" but isn't that exactly what happened after throwing was released? We all stated how powerful throwing was and it was toned down accordingly. Give us some rough versions of grabs that work well enough and let us test them. We can try to help find a happy middle ground that makes the mechanic work without you guys doing all the work on your own.

This is a pre-alpha. When we download the game we accept that there will be bugs and problems. Currently? Melee has this huge issue where RPS is missing scissors aka blocks have no straightforward counter. Hoping for a fix soon; willing to bugtest and analyse/review as necessary.

This is what your community wants and what your game NEEDS. Don't leave this issue as-is.
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Post by Evilsack » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:26 am

► Show Spoiler
I agree with Lunatic (And everyone else who disagrees with the cancelation of grabbing). In my opinion Melee seems far to basic, I mean of course people make up moves like "Snake Fist" and "Dashur" but that's just a RPS system imo. Punch, Block, Punch, Block and moving around your opponent. The grappling system was going to be something that'd counter moves such as "Snake fist" in a efficient way. Melee is something I purposely avoid because it's the same shit over and over again. I'm not saying the melee system is broken but it's far from finished, it's gotten to the point where people will use the same pattern over and over again and it'll work. The grabbing system is going to give us more of a balance when it comes to melee meaning that we'd be able to truly do counter attacks. I appreciate the work you're doing with the game and I understand it takes time and effort to make such features, but cutting it out like that seems kinda half assed particularly when this new system was a pretty useful feature and was a gr8 way to even the odds in hand to hand combat. Pre-Alpha is where most of the basics or at least ideas of the basics are supposed to be finished. Leaving something so important to the development of melee is kinda disappointing.
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Post by Lunatic » Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:28 am

On break, don't have much time to work with, but I had some thoughts while I was working and wanted to get them down before I lost them.

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Here's a simple, common scenario. It's me vs this other guy, and we're next to an object. Of course we could just slapfight each other, but we're better than that and we want to capitalize on our skill and positioning. That crate is the best way to do it. If I jump on top of the crate, plenty of things could happen. Let's start with something basic.

I jump up. I haven't landed yet, he chases after me. I do a kick in the air and he has already jumped after me. He doesn't block it, he gets knocked over, and now I have positional advantage as well as no kneel to wrestle with. He'll land close enough to the crate for me to run off and kick again.

If he doesn't recovery roll, I get a falling kick and then a crouching punch for some bonus damage.
If he does recovery roll, he'll stumble as I kick him. This removes my opportunity to combo/punish since he can block directly out of stagger before I can hit him. More often than not, the stumble will push them out of range of fists/kicks so it's not like I could get a true combo out of this. At most, I'll score some 6 damage and maybe .5-1 extra damage from falling. If I have a weapon, again, he can block that, and by now he'll be playing defensive.

Now, if he chases but doesn't jump up, let's say he runs to the crate and blocks without jumping. My falling kick will hit his block and he'll stumble back a little bit. Again, I can run off and kick to stumble him again if he blocks. And once again, I have no way to punish him because he can block out of stumble to stop me from running up and punching him. He has no fast options so I could technically always dive him at any point here, but that still doesn't reward me unless we go off some edge. See the pattern here?

Now, here's the cool part that grabs would add. He stops at the crate, blocks, and I kick. He stumbles back, I fall off and kick again and he stumbles back once more. Now, we're at the true RPS. If he attacks, he beats my approaching grab because I expect him to play defense and block. If he grabs, my approaching block would get hit and I'd suffer. And if he blocks, my approaching attack would get stuffed and he could punish me.

Grabs can be incorporated in the same vein that we have mobile combat, since that's what we're supposed to do, right? Stay mobile. It'll make slapfights more dynamic, but it'll also give us solid punishes to people trying to block everything since we can do things like running around, feigning an attack, and then putting out a grab.

Kick -> throw weapon/shoot weapon is almost a perfect combo, giving the victim just barely the time to roll/block, but if they've already rolled before the kick then shooting can work if they don't have a melee weapon to block with. I'd love to see kicks be a good combo tool because I could kick and then grab at point blank and they could just barely have the time to kick and stop my grab. This doesn't have to be some static addition, it has room to fit in with your idea of moving around for the advantage in melee. It's great because we can use it for mindgames, to trick our opponent and go in for the kill.
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Post by hxnter » Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:17 am

there's a lot more to melee in this game than people think, even before the throw update. there are many techniques, all of which require you to read/predict your opponent. throwing opened a lot more options of defense/offense in every situation, whether dominant or at low hp. while i enjoy the melee, i do think it would be complete with one more attack option, which opens up more windows to attack/retreat, etc. implementing and balancing such a thing is easier said than done, though. i'm sure the developers are just postponing any more melee related attacks until they see fit.
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Post by Vitamin E » Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:52 pm

hxnter wrote:there's a lot more to melee in this game than people think, even before the throw update. there are many techniques, all of which require you to read/predict your opponent. throwing opened a lot more options of defense/offense in every situation, whether dominant or at low hp. while i enjoy the melee, i do think it would be complete with one more attack option, which opens up more windows to attack/retreat, etc. implementing and balancing such a thing is easier said than done, though. i'm sure the developers are just postponing any more melee related attacks until they see fit.
Yea grabbing would be cool and all but I don't know how it would work in game. I feel like if grabbing is implemented it will be similar to how dives used to be a long time ago which was broken. I think grabs, if added into the game, should only be able to be done on stunned players while they're sliding back or some kind of advanced technique. Shouldn't be easy to just throw someone around. I can see why the Gurt and Hjarpe wouldn't add throwing because it's hard to think of how to balance it with the other moves.
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Post by Evilsack » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:41 pm

Vitamin E wrote:
hxnter wrote:there's a lot more to melee in this game than people think, even before the throw update. there are many techniques, all of which require you to read/predict your opponent. throwing opened a lot more options of defense/offense in every situation, whether dominant or at low hp. while i enjoy the melee, i do think it would be complete with one more attack option, which opens up more windows to attack/retreat, etc. implementing and balancing such a thing is easier said than done, though. i'm sure the developers are just postponing any more melee related attacks until they see fit.
Yea grabbing would be cool and all but I don't know how it would work in game. I feel like if grabbing is implemented it will be similar to how dives used to be a long time ago which was broken. I think grabs, if added into the game, should only be able to be done on stunned players while they're sliding back or some kind of advanced technique. Shouldn't be easy to just throw someone around. I can see why the Gurt and Hjarpe wouldn't add throwing because it's hard to think of how to balance it with the other moves.
That's why we're here. Aren't we supposed to give feedback and cc to these ideas, it simply can't be done without a idea to test.
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Post by Lunatic » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:46 pm

Grabs can be easily balanced by giving them reasonable or easy counters, or special limitations. For example, standing kicks can combo into shooting or throwing, they're very fast, and if you hit someone below you on a crate, someone that jumps before you hit them, or someone on a ladder, you stand to gain a lot from the action. However, kicks have very little range, so you have to really get on top of someone if you want to land this otherwise fast move. It also deals a measly 3 damage; punching deals nearly three times this amount. Now that's what I call balance. It also has a slight spam cap on it so that you can't keep using kicks; cooldowns come into effect after the second kick with a much longer cooldown after the third.

Grabs can be balanced reasonably as well. Use the lingering fist hitbox that catches things like dives so you can use punches to easily stop someone from grabbing you. Make it so that kicks put you in an "ungrabbable" state, so that when someone tries to grab you, you can press kick to push them off of you. Make it so that you can roll to dodge a grab, which would give rolling an actual use in melee. As we all know, rolling doesn't dodge punches or kicks, so it would have a perfect situational use. Plus, initiating a roll is as fast as blocking, so we still have good defensive play. Big bonus: You can roll to your feet after getting knocked down, so there's a real counter to someone kicking you off a crate and trying to grab you! Using a grab could also catch a throw, which is great since throws are fast and hard to block. I mean, you could limit grabs so they only connect with people from behind or when they block, but I feel like that would limit the move wayyy too much. This move really has a lot of room to breathe and we have a lot of options for balancing it.
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Post by Apocalyptic » Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:24 pm

If you are going to put grabs, it could be like a "fury points". At 6 scams (punchs and kicks), you can grab your enemie.
Just an idea, it could be a little diferent.
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Post by Del Poncho » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:58 pm

The block is not this goddamn weapon of mass destruction. Stop acting like it's the definitive way to fight someone,It's just silly to think something like this.
Lunatic wrote:[...] See the pattern here? [...]
You literally described a scene where a guy blocks two of your hits. How is this bad? Why should it be countered? You're now back at the beginning of this situation,standing in the middle of nowhere near a crate.
The guy managed to time his blocks (And you failed to time your attacks). If anybody should get rewarded,that's him.

This is not one of those generic fighting games where you can keep the block endlessy. In that kind of game,sure,grabbing makes sense.
But in SFD,the block is held for just the fraction of a second,just enough to block an incoming hit. After that you can manage to land a second block,if you didnt get staggered. But after that,you're on your own. You get hit.

If you don't time your attacks to pass through the enemy defense,it's your fault if you get blocked,and it's nothing that should be countered. You made a mistake,the enemy blocks you,you get hit.

In four years of playing this game,I've never seen someone block me enough to be considered a game problem,or something that has to be fixed.
I think you're all just making a big fuss out of an inexistent problem.
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Lunatic
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Post by Lunatic » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:16 pm

It's not that blocks are nukes, it's that they have nothing that beats them out-right. If SFD is supposed to be a more defensive, more passive game, then the current design choice makes sense. If being aggressive isn't something we should promote when it comes to our melee system, then that's fine. Blocking is the definition of a strong defensive option. If you're waiting for a block to end so you can hit someone, you're playing passively. If you're responding with lots of blocks to beat someone punching you, then you're playing defensively. Both of these options are valid, there's nothing wrong with them. It's just that hopping around and using the environment isn't the same as having strong offensive tools. Having an option that outright beats blocking promotes aggressive play - I'm not standing around waiting for after your block, I'm hitting you now with a move that beats it. It's not defensive, it's not passive, it's offensive.

And that's the best way I can wrap up the problem that is melee. We have our attack, we have our block, but we have no blockbreak. If we're just playing a defense/passive game then we don't need a block breaker. If we want to promote quick thinking and reads to form a more offensive game, then we need a block breaker, and that's what grabs would be.
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Originally posted by Gurt
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Evilsack
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Post by Evilsack » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:23 pm

We're saying the melee mechanic isn't complete. Someone punches me and I block right? What about the person that punches? He's just gonna block right after. The only options are Punch, block and of course kick, and there the cycle starts. Of course if you're fighting someone more experienced this wont be the case, but with more and more new members there needs to be a change or at least a addition. To be honest I'm tired of having to counter a punch with a punch. We need something to make melee more diverse, that's where grabbing comes in. Let's talk about Punch, block, Punch. If timed correctly this can do some decent damage. Of course you can just move back when your opponent blocks but this isn't an efficient counter when it comes to getting the job done which in this case is killing the other player in order to survive. The problem is melee is a repetitive unfinished mechanic, in order to make combat more diverse we need grabbing. Throwing is nice but it doesn't really add to the system in the way grabbing would. In a heated fight I don't think i'd have enough time to press 1, g and throw. Even if I did if I missed or the opposition caught it, it'd be sad.
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Del Poncho
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Post by Del Poncho » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:46 pm

Lunatic wrote:If you're waiting for a block to end so you can hit someone, you're playing passively.
No. You're not. You're literally just waiting a fraction of a second before attacking.
You're trying to think of SFD like a normal fighting game,while it is the exact opposite.
In a fighting game you need combos,and a little bit timing.
In SFD you need timing,and a little bit of combos.

I can assure you that what I do when I play is definitely not passive or defensive,but I get the win most of the times.

Anyway,if this means to you that SFD is a defensive or passive game,im fine with it. It's a passive game then,and I'm happy with the results we get. There's no need for a new attack.
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