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[DONE] Ability to grab enemies

Here you can see some of our planned features for Superfighters Deluxe.
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[DONE] Ability to grab enemies

Post by Hjarpe » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:34 pm

This idea has been un-canceled. Here's why!

-Grabbing an enemy is done by pressing block and a direction key (left or right) at roughly the same time.

-Your fighter will first throw back his arms (weapon auto-sheathed) and then rush forward with his arms outstretched, "charging". If you run into an enemy, you will grab him, even if he blocks. If your charge misses, you will need some time to recover (roughly the same as a landing kneel).

-If you get hit by a melee attack while charging, you get stunned as usual. Like with the dive, it's enough for the enemy to have his fist or weapon stretched out to hit you. The charge has a 3-ish second cooldown to prevent spamming.

-The time needed to charge and catch an enemy will be such that if you predict someone's block you will certainly catch him before he can finish his block and punch you.

-Grabbing an enemy incapacitates him completely, you holding him by the collar/throat, him flailing his arms helplessly as when free-falling. You won't be able to move while grabbing an enemy, and you can only keep him grabbed for a short time, maybe 2 seconds. After that you drop him and you both regain control.

-While grabbing an enemy you can turn left and right, using him as a kind of shield. Pressing attack causes you to make a power punch which does considerable damage and knocks the enemy down. You can also hold down attack and a direction key to throw the enemy a considerable distance. Or you can press kick to knee your enemy in the groin, causing a knockdown on the spot.

-Any damage taken by the grabber or the grabbed weakens the hold, i.e. makes the grabber drop the grabbed sooner (so a third person can't shoot someone endlessly while they're grabbed). If either the grabber or the grabbed is hit by a melee attack or a critting shot, that person is knocked down.

-Even corpses can be picked up by holding the activate/pickup key while crouching. There's no time limit on grabbing corpses.

-You won't be able to grab teammates.
Last edited by Gurt on Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Updated topic
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Post by Player1 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:26 pm

*Sigh*, anyways I think if you grab in the air you go straight down with the player on top of the other one, and the player on top takes little fall damage.
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Post by Splinter » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:19 am

Cool! I have a suggestion for how the charging could work:
Instead of a charge, you immediately grab the enemy by his collar when you start holding F. After about 0,4 seconds (average human reflex is 250-300 ms, so it can be countered), you lift him up in the air, completing the grab. While you hold him by his collar on the ground, he can't punch or block, but he can press F to counter your grab and free himself.
If the enemy counters your grab, you stagger a little bit, maybe (but you recover quickly enough to block punches).
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Post by KrakenSFD1 » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:00 am

Very ruin ... Completely change the gameplay and beginner would Spammar =/... Without thinking it would be unnecessary.
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Post by Lunatic » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:01 am

@Splinter: Just because the average reflex is 300ms doesn't mean a 400ms startup is super counterable, especially when you take ping into consideration. I like the idea of having a block counter in the form of pressing block, but I've touched on a grab counter here in my post.

Alright, so I'm glad this is being considered. Having a straightforward counter to blocking will round out the melee combat. In terms of what this move needs to have to be effective:
-Decent startup. Fast enough that I can punch and then grab to catch someone blocking on reaction.
-Okay range. If I initiate a grab with my opponent in wrench range, it should connect. Whether or not it connects at machete range is a balancing question that would require more practice.
-Perhaps lower the cooldown on grabs, and instead add a harder counter to them in the form of kicking. If performing a kick makes you immune to being grabbed through the entire animation, you can kick after you get up to push someone trying to spam you off of you.
-Furthermore, I'd give players "grab immunity" after getting up for ~half a second to a full second instead of a grab cooldown. I can already see the new group melee strategy being "each one of us uses a grab after the other until they die."
-Throwing after a grab is fine and dandy, but the effect this will have due to environmental hazards will be downright bonkers. Landing a grab will be incredibly rewarding since I could throw my victim into instant death (pits, explosives, or large fall damage). I'm alright with throws being possible, especially when throwing corpses (to deal with mines) but having the ability to counter this throw for the victim would be very important to stop instant death.

Some questions I have:
-You said that the grabber should "charge forward". Does that make this more of a moving attack, or is it going to be a little more stationary like standard swings?
-If two players use a grab on each other, what would happen? I'd imagine they'd grapple for a moment, hand to hand or hand on shoulders, before they both stumble back.
-Grabs vs tackles: Who wins the trade? Does the tackler fall down like when two players dive at each other? Does the grabber catch the tackler? Or does the tackler catch the grabber?
-Midair grabs??? Can we do them, and if so, what would happen? Anything different?
-If you auto sheathe your weapon upon initiating a grab, will you be required to redraw your weapon if it misses/connects? Or will you exit the grab with your weapon back in hand?
-Power punch vs groin kick. They seem like they both do the same thing; big damage on hit and a knockdown at the grabber's feet. I like the variety, but what will each of these moves do differently compared to the other to make them both have their niche?

I'm really looking forward to this addition, guys! If I can help in any way for the ideas department, let me know.
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Post by Noble » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:52 am

I think it would be cool if it used 20% of stamina just like diving, and could only be used if the player had the enough amount of stamina needed. The range is something to be thought about, if it's like diving, which has a great range, it will become kinda ridiculous and OP, although I think the cooldown of the F key could make this problem avoided. Another important thing, it will only be possible on the ground, right?

I believe it will have a negative significance in the beginning and will completely change the Melee, but fine by me, but it's okay since everything that has been added so far was thought that nothing became exaggerated.
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Post by Billy » Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:22 am

How about, if you hold a enemy on his troat, he looses stamina and if there is no stamina left, he looses lots of health.
And might you can hold someone about 5 secounds, but he can escape somehow.
Grabbing in mid-air could put the other one under you, to absorb about 70% falling damage.
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Post by Splinter » Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:59 pm

Instead of holding F, how about a classic punch+block to grab, like some fighting games? The counter for it could be A+D or just kicking before he "completes the grab": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zulkyJrSGJM
(at 0:29, girl kicks him away in time to escape).

By "charging", do you mean the player will run a little bit until he makes contact with the enemy? Or he'll just lean forward a little bit with his arms stretched?
As grabbing sounds like a very powerful move, specially near pits, I think it should be easier to counter, IF you expect it. That's why I like my idea of instant-grab, because it would immediately give the player a clear visual and sound cue, so he can cancel the grab. The time needed to "complete" this instant-grab would have to be tested and tweaked though, somewhere around 0,4-0,5 seconds.

I agree with Lunatic that kicking and punching after the grab should have different functions. Maybe you can punch the enemy up to 3 times, until he gets knocked down to the ground. Kicking deals a little bit less damage but also makes him stagger back. And throwing launches him further than the kick, but does less damage than the other 2.
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Post by Hjarpe » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:27 am

-You said that the grabber should "charge forward". Does that make this more of a moving attack, or is it going to be a little more stationary like standard swings?
By "charging" I mean running a short distance. I'd prefer this to an instant grab because you have more dynamic ways to react to it, like moving/jumping out of the way or attacking first.
-If two players use a grab on each other, what would happen? I'd imagine they'd grapple for a moment, hand to hand or hand on shoulders, before they both stumble back.
Yeah, something like that.
-Grabs vs tackles: Who wins the trade? Does the tackler fall down like when two players dive at each other? Does the grabber catch the tackler? Or does the tackler catch the grabber?
Not sure which would be more fun yet.
-Midair grabs??? Can we do them, and if so, what would happen? Anything different?
You can only charge while grounded, and will catch anyone who's within reach in the same way. We'll have to decide what happens if the floor collapses under your feet while grabbing someone, though. Maybe you both start falling normally, either uncontrollably or with the ability to slam/jump-kick each other.
-If you auto sheathe your weapon upon initiating a grab, will you be required to redraw your weapon if it misses/connects? Or will you exit the grab with your weapon back in hand?
Not sure which would be more fun yet.
-Power punch vs groin kick. They seem like they both do the same thing; big damage on hit and a knockdown at the grabber's feet. I like the variety, but what will each of these moves do differently compared to the other to make them both have their niche?
The idea is that the groin-kick doesn't have any knockback, the target just falls straight down in a pile of agony, the punch knocks him back much like a regular combo-punch or a bit further, and the throw has the longest range of all. Not sure if there should be any difference in damage between the kick and punch. We only want to allow one attack while you're grabbing, if you had 3 kicks the optimal route would always be to use it twice and then punch/throw him.
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Post by Bash Kraken » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:23 am

Is it possible that the grab could have an optional key bind, for those that wish to use it, instead of holding F? I know that I would rather have the bind be pressing a single key than holding another key that does something else as well.
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Post by [Failman] » Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:46 am

I would like to know if you could bind the sheathe key with grab key allowing you to have 2 Two commands with one button!
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Post by Billy » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:10 am

Will the grab disarm the enemy?
Is it going to be possible to grab someone while holding a primary?
Will it be possible to use breakfall (or however you spell it) after s throw?
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Post by Lunatic » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:37 am

Those first two questions are very valid! Looking forward to a response.
What is "breakfall", though? What are the actions that define that?
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Post by Billy » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:42 am

Breakfall is, when you roll after fallin down ~3 meters, so no fall damage but kneeing, instead of being disabled by kneeing for a short time
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Post by Lunatic » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:10 am

Ah, I see what you're asking. I don't think you'll be able to kneel after being thrown - I'd assume it's like being knocked off your feet, flailing in the air.
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Post by Billy » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:26 am

I know, but i mean if you whould not take fall damage
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Post by Lunatic » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:40 pm

Well, if you're free falling and flailing, you won't be able to land on your feet.
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Post by Zyfex » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:58 pm

maybe billy meant "can you tech the throw"?
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Post by Gurt » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:40 pm

You can do a recovery roll (or a.k.a. tech roll) if you don't take any fall damage after being thrown. Depends on where you are thrown I guess.
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Post by Splinter » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:33 am

If I try a grab at melee range, will it be almost instantaneous? It would be better if it had a tiny delay.
If we could do a grab while sprinting, that would be a great engage against someone with a gun, much better than diving. What if we can disarm somebody if we grab him with his weapon unsheathed and kick him? Sounds a little overpowered though. :p
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